[book]Defining Israel as a Jewish state is the key to its end

[Flash Walken]

Avraham Burg, former Knesset speaker and former head of the Jewish Agency says "to define the State of Israel as a Jewish state is the key to its end. A Jewish state is explosive. It's dynamite." In an interview in Haaretz Weekend Magazine, he said that he is in favor of abrogating the Law of Return and calls on everyone who can to obtain a foreign passport.

Burg, who was interviewed on the occasion of the publication of his book "Defeating Hitler" said "the strategic mistake of Zionism was to annul the alternatives. Israeliness has only body; it doesn't have soul."

"Judaism always prepared alternatives," says Burg, who three years after leaving Israeli politics is now a citizen of France and a successful businessman.

...

His book ruminates about Israel and Zionism, compares Israel and Germany, harshly criticizes Eichmann's hanging, reflects on Judaism in the age of globalization and remembers his father's house.

Burg said he started his book in mourning for the loss of Israel. "During most of the writing the book's title was 'Hitler Won.'

Haaretz Link

Avraham Burg - Wiki

2003 Guardian Article, "The End of Zionism"

I am for sure going to pick up this book.

[blankall]

I've always thought this argument was stupid.

England is filled w/ people of English decent and France is filled w/ people of French decent. Why should Isreal be allowed to be filled w/ people of Jewish decent.

The whole point of establishing Israel was to give a racial minority self determination and sovereingty. If Israel loses that then the Jews in the state would be at the mercy of whoever the majority becomes.

This whole argument is usually used as a means of justifying letting in unlimited amounts of arabs into the country. If that ever happened the first consequence would be the voting in of some islamic government that would exterminate the jews there. If you think any different your lying to yourself.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by blankall

I've always thought this argument was stupid.

England is filled w/ people of English decent and France is filled w/ people of French decent. Why should Isreal be allowed to be filled w/ people of Jewish decent.

The whole point of establishing Israel was to give a racial minority self determination and sovereingty. If Israel loses that then the Jews in the state would be at the mercy of whoever the majority becomes.

This whole argument is usually used as a means of justifying letting in unlimited amounts of arabs into the country. If that ever happened the first consequence would be the voting in of some islamic government that would exterminate the jews there. If you think any different your lying to yourself.

This is a pretty broad statement.

On the one hand, I imagine I'd be pissed about the holocaust and would relish the opportunity to live in a state with a jewish majority, if i were jewish. On the other, having to 'create' a jewish state is very insulting, and also seems to abdicate the teachings and laws of Judaism in favour of adopting political Zionism. There is a large, but suppressed, jewish voice that actively denounces zionism as anti-semetic.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This is a pretty broad statement.

On the one hand, I imagine I'd be pissed about the holocaust and would relish the opportunity to live in a state with a jewish majority, if i were jewish. On the other, having to 'create' a jewish state is very insulting, and also seems to abdicate the teachings and laws of Judaism in favour of adopting political Zionism. There is a large, but suppressed, jewish voice that actively denounces zionism as anti-semetic.

Its my opinion that the "large, but surpressed" voice is fooling themselves. The majority of this voice takes this opinion because they believe that it is the messiah who should deliver Israel to the jewish people and not politics. These people are religious fanatics. There are many jews who criticize Israel's tactics, but few would advocate that jews do not deserve a state of their own. I also fail to see how this voice is supressed. In fact, it looks like they just published a book.

I really dont see how creating a state is a bad thing. All modern states were created at some point. The vast majority of which in this past century. In fact there are very few states that can claim they existed in the state they do for more than 100 years, yet people seem to want to single israel out as the only "created" state. Take a look at what Canada looked like in the year 1900....it didnt exist. Other examples: Poland, Austria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia (every other arab state), India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, virtually every state in Africa and South America, almost all the states in southeast Asia. At the turn of the century colonialism ended and various ethnic and religious groups were given states. The jews happened to be one of them. There is nothing racist about a minority not wanting to be exterminated and assimilated. Accept it and move on

[HOZ]

Feel free to take a look at this list of righteous books.

http://www.nsm88.com/articles/onlinebooks.html

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Feel free to take a look at this list of righteous books.

http://www.nsm88.com/articles/onlinebooks.html

Does it hurt to be this stupid? I'm curious, because you're the only person I've ever met who has confused an Israeli member of the knesset with an aryan nationalist.

I'm amazed you can even use a computer.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Does it hurt to be this stupid? I'm curious, because you're the only person I've ever met who has confused an Israeli member of the knesset with an aryan nationalist.

I'm amazed you can even use a computer.

Who is confusing a Knesset member? Not me. I didn't offer him the list.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Who is confusing a Knesset member? Not me. I didn't offer him the list.

Yeah, but does it hurt?

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yeah, but does it hurt?

I dunno...you tell me.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Who is confusing a Knesset member? Not me. I didn't offer him the list.

You're right, I'm a jew hating anti-semite.

What a joke. Go back to your enviroloonies discussion and let the adults talk.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Feel free to take a look at this list of righteous books.

http://www.nsm88.com/articles/onlinebooks.html

This is a pretty crude and mindless 'point'... discussion of the legitimacy of Israel does not automatically make one a Nazi supporter.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yeah, but does it hurt?

Bwahahahahahaha!!

[PsYcNeT]

Being of Jewish decent, I've had the Zionist ideal pounded into me since a young age by the people surrounding me (and to a lesser degree, my parents), where the Jewish faith groups and schools often play the victim to get their own way.

Unfortunately, the issue is complicated by a million different factors (geographics, politics, religion, proximity to people that hate them, etc.) to make it as cut and dry as "They should/shouldn't be there", but I'll tell you one thing:

I am goddamn tired of hearing my own people (Jews) constantly spout that they need Israel to survive, and a strip of land in the Middle East is worth having millions of people die for (again). When local Jewish youth relish at the thought of travelling overseas to fight on border patrols and the like to get the opportunity to shoot Arabs, I swear they should be excommunicated and slapped around with a studded leather belt.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Being of Jewish decent, I've had the Zionist ideal pounded into me since a young age by the people surrounding me (and to a lesser degree, my parents), where the Jewish faith groups and schools often play the victim to get their own way.

Unfortunately, the issue is complicated by a million different factors (geographics, politics, religion, proximity to people that hate them, etc.) to make it as cut and dry as "They should/shouldn't be there", but I'll tell you one thing:

I am goddamn tired of hearing my own people (Jews) constantly spout that they need Israel to survive, and a strip of land in the Middle East is worth having millions of people die for (again). When local Jewish youth relish at the thought of travelling overseas to fight on border patrols and the like to get the opportunity to shoot Arabs, I swear they should be excommunicated and slapped around with a studded leather belt.

I agree that the zionist movement goes way too far on many occasions. I'm also of jewish decent and know exactly what you are talking about when you say you were force fed opinions. I would never consider moving to Israel at this point or fighting in their army. I disagree w/ many of their policies. I preffer existing in a multicultural society such as Canada.


I also agree that the removal of Israel would not mean the instant extinction of all jews. Especially not for ones who are lucky to live in western and liberal societies. This would, however, not hold true for all jewish populations. Furthermore, not everyone is content to exist as a minority. In a modern world, the greatest issue is probably one of assimilation. Which has the same cultural effect as extermination. Yes you are lucky enough to live in a society where you dont have to worry about that unless you chose. Keep in mind the majority of jews in Israel are decended from former members of arab countries. Of the remaining jews most are decended from former members of the soviet union. I'm guessing either of those people have an experience entirely different from your own.

Anyway, this is all a little off topic. My points are this:

1) A minority wanting their own country is not the same thing as racism.
2) If Israel lost its jewish character and accepted an arab/muslim majority it would cease to exist as a state with any real jewish character and the jews living there would be at the mercy of fanaticals wanting a pan arab/muslim state.

For the record the holocaust was not an excuse to give the jews a state. At most it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Plans to create a jewish state and emigration to what is now Israel started long before the holocaust.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by blankall

Anyway, this is all a little off topic. My points are this:

1) A minority wanting their own country is not the same thing as racism.
2) If Israel lost its jewish character and accepted an arab/muslim majority it would cease to exist as a state with any real jewish character and the jews living there would be at the mercy of fanaticals wanting a pan arab/muslim state.

For the record the holocaust was not an excuse to give the jews a state. At most it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Plans to create a jewish state and emigration to what is now Israel started long before the holocaust.

Ah, real posts, I'm glad HOZ didn't kill the thread completely. Thank you to you and Psycnet for providing a jewish perspective on this.

While I agree with you that a minority group wanting their own country is not akin to racism, ghettoization, indescriminant killing and apartheid style policies are racist. The cantons in Gaza and the West Bank are no different than Germany's ghettos or South Africa's Bantu Stands in my opinion, and they should be seen as such.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Being of Jewish decent, I've had the Zionist ideal pounded into me since a young age by the people surrounding me (and to a lesser degree, my parents), where the Jewish faith groups and schools often play the victim to get their own way.

Unfortunately, the issue is complicated by a million different factors (geographics, politics, religion, proximity to people that hate them, etc.) to make it as cut and dry as "They should/shouldn't be there", but I'll tell you one thing:

I am goddamn tired of hearing my own people (Jews) constantly spout that they need Israel to survive, and a strip of land in the Middle East is worth having millions of people die for (again). When local Jewish youth relish at the thought of travelling overseas to fight on border patrols and the like to get the opportunity to shoot Arabs, I swear they should be excommunicated and slapped around with a studded leather belt.

Just maybe you should have listened a little closer instead of being so arrogant. Just maybe there was a very good reason for that POUNDING.

A little history lesson I am sure you have been told and ignored/forgotten/never thought worthwhile listening to while living in a free (safe) society.

6 millions Jews died (and millions prior to the holocaust via various progroms) because they had no where to go. Nobody would help them when they needed to flee. No country on Earth. They had NO options. They were herded into gas chambers and slaughtered enmass.

Just have a thought to what that must have felt like. Ask your relatives. Maybe that is why they feel like digging in and fighting for a small strip of land in the Middle East.

Could be that they feel that the only ones they can count on is themselves? Just a thought.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

This is a pretty crude and mindless 'point'... discussion of the legitimacy of Israel does not automatically make one a Nazi supporter.


Bwahahahahahaha!!

No, but it sure makes you cosy with fascists.

An Israeli in a free and open society is talking about the future course of his country. So called progressives use his work to legitimize/cloak their support for fascist entities and their own anti-semitism.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Ah, real posts, I'm glad HOZ didn't kill the thread completely. Thank you to you and Psycnet for providing a jewish perspective on this.

While I agree with you that a minority group wanting their own country is not akin to racism, ghettoization, indescriminant killing and apartheid style policies are racist. The cantons in Gaza and the West Bank are no different than Germany's ghettos or South Africa's Bantu Stands in my opinion, and they should be seen as such.

They are actually quite different. The ultimate goal of the gaza and west bank is an autonomous palestinian state. Also killing is not indiscriminate. You may want to think differently, but Israel is attacked everyday. ALL attacks are directed at militants. Yes there are lots of civilian casaulties, but that is because militatnts hide w/out uniforms in civilian areas.

Also there is no apartheid in Israel. there are 1.5 millino arab citizens w/in Israel who enjoy full citizenship. The arabs in the west bank and gaza are not Israeli citizens, so they are treated differently. Hopefully one day we will see two states living side by side, but even the staunchest pro-palestinian must admit that Israel's actions are not the only obstacle to this.

Also comparing israel's actions to the nazi's (which you have done w/ the reference to Germany's ghettos) is totally out of line. If Israel's actions were in anyway comparable there would be no problem since there would be no palestinians. Instead, the palestinians are one of the fastest growing groups in the world. THey went from numbering a few hundred thousand at the begining of the 1900s to about 10 million today.

I'm not sure what kind of a soluiton you would propose to this problem, but befoer you say anything keep in mind there were no checkpoints or wall until the suicide bombings started happening on mass at the start of the second infitada.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by HOZ

No, but it sure makes you cozy with fascists.

No it doesn't... discussing a book about Israel's legitimacy as a state makes you interested in the topic, not cozy with fascists. You can hold an opinion on this issue without being a Jew-hater/murderer/advocate of the holocaust. I've seen it done at university/lectures well attended by Jews at the U of C dozens of times (the Kahanoff Chair faculty member will gladly get into the discussion without labelling people fascists).

There are lots of Jews who don't espouse Zionism, and that doesn't make them any less Jewish (or cozy with fascists).

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Just maybe you should have listened a little closer instead of being so arrogant.

Laugh. You might want to think about who you are giving lectures before you call anyone else arrogant.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Just maybe you should have listened a little closer instead of being so arrogant. Just maybe there was a very good reason for that POUNDING.

A little history lesson I am sure you have been told and ignored/forgotten/never thought worthwhile listening to while living in a free (safe) society.

6 millions Jews died (and millions prior to the holocaust via various progroms) because they had no where to go. Nobody would help them when they needed to flee. No country on Earth. They had NO options. They were herded into gas chambers and slaughtered enmass.

Just have a thought to what that must have felt like. Ask your relatives. Maybe that is why they feel like digging in and fighting for a small strip of land in the Middle East.

Could be that they feel that the only ones they can count on is themselves? Just a thought.

So having been persecuted for thousands of years is legitimate reasoning for intensely agressive warmongering, ghettozation of other races, occultish nationalism, unbridled patriotism, and the constant push from all sides to believe in a singular ideal?

The reality is, most Jews absolutely hate each other. In the Calgary Jewish community alone, I have never seen so much infighting, internal discrimination based on wealth, and general elitism than elsewhere.

How else can our private schools justify charging over $5000/per student per year (plus numerous synagogue gratuities), while shutting out the poorer (read: middle class) Jews from obtaining a proper education wherein they can do proper Torah and language study? On that note, why does this insanely expensive schooling include support of Zionist 'charitable' groups and the teachings against other religious/regional groups? Why the hell is this right?

I had family members not survive the chambers, I have known numerous elderly who did in fact escape Europe during/after the war, but if these peoples suffering are enough to justify hatemongering and introversion on behalf of an entire group of people, well, that's just messed right up.

PS It's not racism unless the bigotry is directed towards one of the three existing races: Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid. Go read an anthropology text book smart guy.