Steroids supplied to "dozens of Major Leaguers"

[Bobblehead]

In the ongoing BALCO investication, a significant announcement was made today:

Kirk J. Radomski, a New York Mets clubhouse employee between 1985 and 1995, has pleaded guilty in U.S. District Court in San Francisco to distribution of a controlled substance -- a schedule three anabolic steroid -- to "dozens of Major Leaguers on teams throughout the league."

This is going to be interesting.

[Flames in 07]

I just heard on FSN that he is prepared to talk about several dozen clients from 95 - 05.

[killer_carlson]

snore......

baseball players and steroids. Ok, I get it, they use them.

Should their records count? I've heard the debate.

Until they start rampant suspensions, I'm going to admit I've reached saturation point on this issue.

It's too bad because it should be a huge deal, but I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

[SportsJunky]

On a related note, didn't I see in the paper last week that Victor Conte, is out of prison and getting ready to re-start Balco?

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

snore......

baseball players and steroids. Ok, I get it, they use them.

Should their records count? I've heard the debate.

Until they start rampant suspensions, I'm going to admit I've reached saturation point on this issue.

It's too bad because it should be a huge deal, but I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

Two points: 1) Youre right - the topic is so saturated it's not even debatable anymore until something big happens - new drug policy, a player serves time, someone dies on the field, etc...

2) Why is there such a double standard between football and baseball? Shawn Merrimen gets suspended for doing steriods, comes back, dominates and is considered for defensive player of the year (and NFL-types argue he would have won, if not for his steriod suspension - ????). If youre a MLB player and you so much as talk to a guy that knew a guy that had the same doctor as a steriod user, youre ineligible for the Hall of Fame and blackballed in the media.

I say, who cares. Let them shoot up in the fungos. I want to see Bonds hit a ball to San Jose and then his head explodes. I want to see a 3.10 second 100m in the Olympics - make it like drag racing. I just wish it would go away as the topic to start SportsCenter every night.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

I say, who cares. Let them shoot up in the fungos. I want to see Bonds hit a ball to San Jose and then his head explodes. I want to see a 3.10 second 100m in the Olympics - make it like drag racing. I just wish it would go away as the topic to start SportsCenter every night.

It probably isn't good for anyone when guys die from doing stuff like this (see Belcher, Steve and Caminetti, Ken).

I also think fans want to see players competing fairly. With the know health risks of many of these drugs, is it fair to make it a requirement to take them in order to compete?

And myself, I would like to be able to measure the achievements of players across generations. When Bond's broke The Babe's records and when he breaks Hank Aaron's record, I won't view it as valid because those players did it with their own physical abilities, and didn't need a chemist to put them over the top.

Bonds is an amazing hitter. His eye for the strike zone is remarkable. And he may have been the greatest hitter on his own merits. But we will never know.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

It probably isn't good for anyone when guys die from doing stuff like this (see Belcher, Steve and Caminetti, Ken).

I also think fans want to see players competing fairly. With the know health risks of many of these drugs, is it fair to make it a requirement to take them in order to compete?

And myself, I would like to be able to measure the achievements of players across generations. When Bond's broke The Babe's records and when he breaks Hank Aaron's record, I won't view it as valid because those players did it with their own physical abilities, and didn't need a chemist to put them over the top.

Bonds is an amazing hitter. His eye for the strike zone is remarkable. And he may have been the greatest hitter on his own merits. But we will never know.

I agree, I dont want to see anyone die (a joke...).

As for comparisons of statistics, I dont think you can compare even without steroids. Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth played in a era where pitchers were used for long stretches and pitched way beyond when they were tired, there wasnt as many specialty pitchers (guys that come in for one out) and the mound was several inches lower which created a flatter ball coming out of the pitchers hand which was much more hit-able.

Considering that there have been questions about the density of the ball, corked bats, pitchers using foreign substances (Kenny Rogers) and now steroids - baseball is a cheating mans sport.

Let's just hope Barry hits 756 and it stands for 5-6 years and then A-Rod beats it to re-set the record to legitimacy.

[CaptainCrunch]

Baseball has always been about cheating, the poster above me is right.

When Aaron hit all of his home runs, how many pitchers were using snot, vaseline, spit and sandpaper on the ball, so logically we should add another 10 or 20 home runs to his total.

How many hits were hit off of doctored bats. Should the newer balls count against modern day batters.

Why did Ty Cobb steal so many bases, maybe its because nobody wanted to make the tag because you'd eat his spikes.

How many players were true steroid junkies in the 80's and 90's before testing became rampant.

Its now unfair to point at modern day players and single them out in a twisted way because they're just carrying on a line of former cheaters.

I honestly think that they should encourage Steroid use in the majors. Make them sign waivers that they understand the health risk, and then supply them with as many steroids as they can inject, injest, or ram up thier butt. Feed them speed, and super strength ephederine. I mean honestly can you imagine a pitcher who can throw the ball at 200 miles an hour. It will certainly balance out the steroid laden hitter who can park the ball in the next state. Or a guy who can run 40 yards in under 4 seconds. The doubles record would be shattered.

And it would be exciting, kind of like watching a freak show.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

I agree, I dont want to see anyone die (a joke...).

As for comparisons of statistics, I dont think you can compare even without steroids. Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth played in a era where pitchers were used for long stretches and pitched way beyond when they were tired, there wasnt as many specialty pitchers (guys that come in for one out) and the mound was several inches lower which created a flatter ball coming out of the pitchers hand which was much more hit-able.

Considering that there have been questions about the density of the ball, corked bats, pitchers using foreign substances (Kenny Rogers) and now steroids - baseball is a cheating mans sport.

Let's just hope Barry hits 756 and it stands for 5-6 years and then A-Rod beats it to re-set the record to legitimacy.

Sure the game changes, but I'm not sure "specialty" pitchers really make that much of a difference. And I'm only saying that because if you look back at historical records, they really seem to hold up. Sure, no one has hit 400 in 60 years, but somehow the great pitching records are from the same era. We don't see 400 hitters, but we don't see 30 game winners, either.

Sure, there is no perfect parallel. Outside of Wrigley, Fenway and Yankee Stadium, the fields are different dimensions, the equipment is different, the length of the season, the length of the playoffs. But it was played by players attempting to get away with what they could on the field. Be it spitballs (banned in 1920) or corked bats, it was on the field, not in a gym locker room.

There is so much money on the line now, I don't think they will ever get rid of steroids from any sport. But that doesn't mean it should be allowed. It is a privilege to be an elite athlete, the life's ambition for most of them. Perhaps if you make the penalties great enough to threaten those athlete's dream it may prevent most of them from taking those shortcuts. </off soapbox>

[burn_baby_burn]

Some good points on why hitting was easier in Babe Ruth's day than now. Steroids have obviously enabled Barry Bonds to hit at an elite level at an advanced age. Babe Ruth never had that advantage. What would Babe Ruth have done on Steroids? Bear in mind that this was a guy who was denied three home runs because he was too exhausted to run the bases. If Babe Ruth had the training and nutrition programs that are available to todays athletes as well as Steroids. How many more would he have knocked over the fence?

But one could also argue that he never played night games, never had to travel west of the Missouri, didn't play against african american or latino players. It all makes for interesting debate.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Sure the game changes, but I'm not sure "specialty" pitchers really make that much of a difference. And I'm only saying that because if you look back at historical records, they really seem to hold up. Sure, no one has hit 400 in 60 years, but somehow the great pitching records are from the same era. We don't see 400 hitters, but we don't see 30 game winners, either.

Sure, there is no perfect parallel. Outside of Wrigley, Fenway and Yankee Stadium, the fields are different dimensions, the equipment is different, the length of the season, the length of the playoffs. But it was played by players attempting to get away with what they could on the field. Be it spitballs (banned in 1920) or corked bats, it was on the field, not in a gym locker room.

There is so much money on the line now, I don't think they will ever get rid of steroids from any sport. But that doesn't mean it should be allowed. It is a privilege to be an elite athlete, the life's ambition for most of them. Perhaps if you make the penalties great enough to threaten those athlete's dream it may prevent most of them from taking those shortcuts. </off soapbox>

There arent any more 30 game winners because a)i) starters only make approximately 34 starts a season, a)ii) there's a 5 man rotation, and b) the "leash" given by managers is much shorter because of the increased emphasis on the bullpen.

I dont think cheating on the field is better than cheating in the weight room. Steroids gives you a little extra jump off the bat (Ive heard 10-15 feet on fly balls) which takes those warning track flyouts at puts them into the HR category. But corked bats do much the same. Spit balls cause a few more inches of movement. It's all to gain an advantage. But steroids can't teach eye-hand coordination, pitch selection nor the 95% of bat speed that comes just because youre a natural (~5% increase w/ steroids).

As for what can be done about it - I think that even really heavy sanctions such as a one-and-done policy wouldnt deter players that much. Steroid manufacturers will continue to find more steathly versions, better masking agents, and other ways to cheat. As a player sitting in the minors or trying to fight off an injury, the temptation to make it to the bigs or get health and get that major league contract, is worth the risk.

Im more interested in way everyone cares about MLB but no one seems to care about the NFL (a more obvious sport where steroids would give a player an advantage... or bring them up to the norm.)