Study: 100,000 Excess Civilian Iraqi Deaths...

[Daradon]

And also according to this study, the main reason ISN'T because of the terror practises of the insurgents.

The rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by U.S. air strikes on towns and cities.

"Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100,000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq," said Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in a report published online by The Lancet medical journal.

"The use of air power in areas with lots of civilians appears to be killing a lot of women and children," Roberts told Reuters.

Study: 100,000 excess Iraqi deaths.

As big a tragedy as September 11th 2001 was, the loss of life pales to this in a numeric sense.

And this was Iraq, NOT Afghanistan. This nation wasn't even responsible. There were NO WMD's. There was NO link to Al Qaeda.

Until the U.S. changes it's foreign policy expect the rest of the world to be outraged or disgusted, or just plain upset about it's leader and it's people who voted him in. It's kind of disappointing to keep hearing U.S. citizens or sympathizers talking about growing U.S. resentment when it backs a leader responsible for stuff like this.

And expect the U.S. to be the target of terrorism for a lot longer too. You can't solve violence with violence, (especially when you bring it back an estimated 50 times over) and the U.S. certainly isn't making any friends by lying to the international community about the reasons of invasion.

Only a dramatic policy shift is going to keep the U.S. safe. (Or I suppose the complete and utter obliteration of it's 'enemies' on the scale of a third world war) And only a mandate from the people (be it by a vote or a growing movement) is going to curb anti-U.S. sentiment around the world.

I'm sorry, that's only fair.

Edit: Spelling as usual

[Lanny_MacDonald]

And who could blame a nation from wanting to park a nuke in the middle of an American city? How anyone can not agree that Bush and Co. are criminals and have committed attrocities against humanity is beyond me? I'm blown away by those numbers and I'm ashamed to say I know people who back Bush. A lot of Americans are going die soon for no other reason than Bush refused to consider his actions.

:unsure:

[Bingo]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 28 2004, 05:53 PM
And who could blame a nation from wanting to park a nuke in the middle of an American city? How anyone can not agree that Bush and Co. are criminals and have committed attrocities against humanity is beyond me? I'm blown away by those numbers and I'm ashamed to say I know people who back Bush. A lot of Americans are going die soon for no other reason than Bush refused to consider his actions.

:unsure:

That's OK Lanny ... us morons that back Bush can be quite ashamed of you too.

Terrible news if true, and a really sad thing for Iraq and it's citizens. Hopefully things will get under control and the country will grow without a dictator killing them into the future to the point that they can honestly say they're better off.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 28 2004, 11:53 PM
And who could blame a nation from wanting to park a nuke in the middle of an American city? How anyone can not agree that Bush and Co. are criminals and have committed attrocities against humanity is beyond me? I'm blown away by those numbers and I'm ashamed to say I know people who back Bush. A lot of Americans are going die soon for no other reason than Bush refused to consider his actions.

:unsure:

So you're apalled by Bush's actions in Iraq yet you couldn't blame anyone for wanting to take revenge on that tenfold?

Sometimes you'd be better off not posting Lanny.

[peter12]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Oct 28 2004, 07:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Oct 28 2004, 07:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 28 2004, 11:53 PM
And who could blame a nation from wanting to park a nuke in the middle of an American city? How anyone can not agree that Bush and Co. are criminals and have committed attrocities against humanity is beyond me? I'm blown away by those numbers and I'm ashamed to say I know people who back Bush. A lot of Americans are going die soon for no other reason than Bush refused to consider his actions.

:unsure:

So you're apalled by Bush's actions in Iraq yet you couldn't blame anyone for wanting to take revenge on that tenfold?

Sometimes you'd be better off not posting Lanny. [/b][/quote]
Good point. Lanny should probably take up some other hobby than using this mesasge board.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Bingo@Oct 29 2004, 12:43 AM
That's OK Lanny ... us morons that back Bush can be quite ashamed of you too.

Well I'm finally glad that you're out of the closet and admit that you're a moron (is that supposed to be a surprise to anyone btw?) and that you're backing Bush (is that supposed to be a surprise to anyone btw?).

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 29 2004, 01:07 AM
So you're apalled by Bush's actions in Iraq yet you couldn't blame anyone for wanting to take revenge on that tenfold?

Sometimes you'd be better off not posting Lanny.

What part of WANTING did you miss there Dis? I did not say I would condone the action, but I sure as hell understand WHY someone would WANT to do that. Or was it all right for the Americans who immediately wanted to NUKEM after 9/11 to think that, because they had just seen a horrific attack, but not for others to think that after watching their country destroyed and a 100,000 (33 times the loss of life of 9/11) of their citizens killed? I don't condone either, but I understand the feelings.

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Bingo@Oct 28 2004, 06:43 PM
Terrible news if true, and a really sad thing for Iraq and it's citizens. Hopefully things will get under control and the country will grow without a dictator killing them into the future to the point that they can honestly say they're better off.

Hey, yeah I was all for taking Saddam Hussein out, I just didn't like the whole WMD Al Qaeda accusations and lies and propaganda. It makes you wonder, 'ok, what is the REAL reason for all of this?'

If the U.S. had spent a little more time being diplomatic and just outright said. Look, we want to go in for humantarian reasons. This guy has torture chambers and rape rooms, these people need to be liberated, I think they could have garnered more support. And maybe with more nations being involved, more troops being put on the ground from all over the world, and more political pressure and attention (instead of the scenario now where the insurgents feel justified because the rest of the world IS mad at the States) the death toll may not have been so high. And the anti-U.S. sentiment wouldn't be as bad as it is either. But I can't back a motion based on lies, and like I said before, it just makes the government look that more suspicious. I mean, there are so many unanswered questions now.

This of course would have taken more time though, and for some reason Bush seemed to want to get in there as quick as possible, which raises even more questions.

As for the report being true or not. Well, it could be exageratted a bit I'm sure, but it is based from U.S. think tanks, and even if the number was cut in half it would still be disgusting.

EDIT: Grammer, etc.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by peter12@Oct 29 2004, 01:10 AM

Good point. Lanny should probably take up some other hobby than using this mesasge board.

Thanks Peter, and YOU add so much to the forum.

[Superfraggle]

Children, could we please try to keep things civil here? Barely veiled and even point blank insults should really be beneath us, don't you think? Go find another message board for this crap. In case anyone gets confused, this is not directed at the topic or the starter of the thread...just the bickerers :angry:

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 28 2004, 05:53 PM
And who could blame a nation from wanting to park a nuke in the middle of an American city?

Im suprised at the responses to this as I sort of look at it the same way as you Lanny. Maybe not on a nuclear scale, but 100 000 deaths blamed on Bush and his war and we are supposed to expect these people to just 'let it slide' and embrace the American occupation with open arms? Think of how many people the 3000 deaths on Sept. 11th affected and it's no wonder people in the Middle East are getting all enraged at the Western World. Try and imagine if everything was flipped around here and we were the ones being occupied and 100 000 people had been killed by our so called liberators. I bet alot of you would be singing a very different tune.

I would really love to see some numbers on deaths as a result of terrorist attacks relative to deaths brought on by the Western world in the last little while. Would be interesting to compare the two...

[Bingo]

Lanny ... this is what you get when you say stupid things. It's really that simple. You don't back Bush, you lean to the Democrats. You are more than welcome to do so, and I would never talk down to, or disrespect anyone for feeling the same way. The country is divided 50% either way, that tells you that there is more than enough logic on both sides, that you don't need to trash half a nation.

Treat people with respect and you'll get it back. Spur people on with moronic comments like that and you'll get the opposite.

I'm not a huge Bush fan, I back him in this election, so no, I don't think that comment was a surprise, nor was it meant to be. A very large percentage of North Americans backed the move into Iraq to take out Hussein, the fact that the numbers are lower now just show's you how much hypocricy there is in public opinion.

If you think I'm a moron .. fine. You've called me worse, heck you've called almost everyone worse. That's sadly all you do.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Sure thing Bingo, saying stupid things. Like marginalizing 100,000 civilian deaths just to support a moron of a politician? Sure. And you think for a second that there is not a massive number of people in Iraq, let alone the rest of the Middle East, who would love to see a mushroom cloud over an American city? Well you're kidding yourself. And I think that if you went to that part of the world and asked them who is saying stupid things, they would say those make excuses for and support Bush. Its completely out of character for a Bush supporter, but consider them before you think how stupid a comment is.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 29 2004, 02:01 AM
snip - would love to see a mushroom cloud over an American city?

Come on, that's just because they hate our freedom.

[kipperfan]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Oct 29 2004, 02:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Oct 29 2004, 02:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 29 2004, 02:01 AM
snip - would love to see a mushroom cloud over an American city?

Come on, that's just because they hate our freedom. [/b][/quote]
Perhaps.....................or perhaps they hate your foriegn intrusion

[badnarik]

Falluja supposedly has a population of 200,000, one-third of which evacuated during the operations earlier this year. The report claims that 2/3 of 'violent deaths' happened in Falluja bombings, which would mean that nearly half of the population of Falluja was killed if you believe that all 100,000 of the 'excess deaths' were the violent deaths, which is what I inferred.

The report is too vaguely written and even admits that it was fast-tracked for publication and needs further verification, or did I misread something?

No doubt thousands have been killed, but one has to question why a report like this would be rushed to publication a week before the election.

[Mike F]

Originally posted by Bingo@Oct 28 2004, 06:49 PM
A very large percentage of North Americans backed the move into Iraq to take out Hussein, the fact that the numbers are lower now just show's you how much hypocricy there is in public opinion.

It's not hypocracy to support a war when you're told the target is on the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons, and then not support it when it's revealed that that was a load of crap.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Bingo@Oct 28 2004, 07:49 PM
A very large percentage of North Americans backed the move into Iraq to take out Hussein, the fact that the numbers are lower now just show's you how much hypocricy there is in public opinion.

Or maybe the fact that the numbers are lower now just shows how many people realize they were wrong in trusting their government?

[kipperfan]

Originally posted by Mike F+Oct 29 2004, 02:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike F @ Oct 29 2004, 02:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Bingo@Oct 28 2004, 06:49 PM
A very large percentage of North Americans backed the move into Iraq to take out Hussein, the fact that the numbers are lower now just show's you how much hypocricy there is in public opinion.

It's not hypocracy to support a war when you're told the target is on the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons, and then not support it when it's revealed that that was a load of crap.[/b][/quote]
I think Mike hit the nail on the head, when the entire world, not just the US was decieved, how can anyone be hyprocritical??? None of us knew the real truth, if everyone knew the "real" truth from the beginning a majority of americans never would have supported this war effort.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Oct 29 2004, 01:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Oct 29 2004, 01:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Displaced Flames fan@Oct 29 2004, 01:07 AM
So you're apalled by Bush's actions in Iraq yet you couldn't blame anyone for wanting to take revenge on that tenfold?

Sometimes you'd be better off not posting Lanny.

What part of WANTING did you miss there Dis? I did not say I would condone the action, but I sure as hell understand WHY someone would WANT to do that. Or was it all right for the Americans who immediately wanted to NUKEM after 9/11 to think that, because they had just seen a horrific attack, but not for others to think that after watching their country destroyed and a 100,000 (33 times the loss of life of 9/11) of their citizens killed? I don't condone either, but I understand the feelings. [/b][/quote]
Understanding why and being unable to blame them for an action are two very different things.

Nice attempt at backtracking though.