Darwin's God . . . .

[Cowperson]

If you have the time, this is an interesting if not profound article in the weekend New York Times Magazine on the scientific explanation as to why humans believe in God.

Have humans evolved to believe in God?

For secularists, humanists and the religious alike . . . . . and maybe an unintended sidebar look into the psychology of conspiracy theorists as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/ma...=1&oref=slogin

Cowperson

[troutman]

In recent years there has been a lot of talk about people having a "god gene". Are we wired to believe in god? Humans look for patterns and cause and effect explanations.

One recent study refuted this reasoning I think. I'll see if I can find it.

I think it is natural to wonder "where did we come from" and "why are we here".


Is God in Our Genes?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...725072,00.html


'The God Gene': Bad Science Meets Bad Theology
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/154/story_15458_1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene

http://www.carlzimmer.com/articles/2...004_hamer.html

http://www.amazon.com/How-We-Believe.../dp/071673561X
How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science
Why do so many believe in the existence of something so inexplicable? That's exactly what Shermer answers in this comprehensive, intelligent, and highly readable discussion about the nature of faith. "People believe in God because the evidence of their senses tell them so," claims Shermer, who is the publisher of Skeptics magazine. Having been a believer and a student of the history of science, Shermer (now an agnostic) is more interested in knowing why and how people believe in God rather than trying to prove who's right or wrong. As a result, this book is not only even-handed and thorough, it is also destined to become a timeless contribution to spirituality as well as science

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200512/god-accident

[Red]

God vs. Evolution, the never ending debate.

I thought this pretty much explained it all...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jizK1JOJsW4

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Red

God vs. Evolution, the never ending debate.

I thought this pretty much explained it all...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jizK1JOJsW4

Actually, this thread is about evolution explaining God as opposed to evolution versus God.

Cowperson

[Red]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Actually, this thread is about evolution explaining God as opposed to evolution versus God.

Cowperson

Are you saying that I should've read the article?

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Red

Are you saying that I should've read the article?

God has made you self-aware and you can therefore read the article if you choose . . . . . unless you're a speed-reader, however, it would probably take you awhile given its about 12 pages.

The shape of the debate:

Lost in the hullabaloo over the neo-atheists is a quieter and potentially more illuminating debate. It is taking place not between science and religion but within science itself, specifically among the scientists studying the evolution of religion. These scholars tend to agree on one point: that religious belief is an outgrowth of brain architecture that evolved during early human history. What they disagree about is why a tendency to believe evolved, whether it was because belief itself was adaptive or because it was just an evolutionary byproduct, a mere consequence of some other adaptation in the evolution of the human brain.

Which is the better biological explanation for a belief in God — evolutionary adaptation or neurological accident? Is there something about the cognitive functioning of humans that makes us receptive to belief in a supernatural deity? And if scientists are able to explain God, what then? Is explaining religion the same thing as explaining it away? Are the nonbelievers right, and is religion at its core an empty undertaking, a misdirection, a vestigial artifact of a primitive mind? Or are the believers right, and does the fact that we have the mental capacities for discerning God suggest that it was God who put them there?

Cowperson

[Claeren]

Incrediably fascinating. There have been a number of very good publications on similar matters lately. It is funny how things swing - where we go from a strong and vocal religious movement in the USA ~4-8 years ago to now where things are swinging the other way and that vocal group has largely been silenced and the other side gets it time in the sun... of course it will swing back the other way, but it is still interesting to me...




Claeren.

[PYroMaNiaC]

That was an excellent read, Cowperson. Thank you.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Actually, this thread is about evolution explaining God as opposed to evolution versus God.

Cowperson

There are many a varied opinion as to the relation...

Daniel Dennett, the philosopher has proposed that religion evolved like a virus, suggesting that it infected our ancestors and continued to spread throughout cultures. Anthropologist Pascal Boyer argued that religious belief is a byproduct of a brain that evolved to detect predators and other survival needs. In this view, the brain developed a hair-trigger detection system to believe the world is full of "agents" that affect our lives. And British biologist Lewis Wolpert, with yet another theory, posits that religion developed once humans understood cause and effect, allowing them to make complex tools. Once they started to make causal connections, they felt compelled to explain life's mysteries. Their brains, in essence, turned into "belief engines."

Based on the above it may be entirely probable that ones position in life as a scientist, philosopher, anthropologist, etc etc would be the base from which to begin a theory or explanation.
None of these have anything to do with proving an actual God exists.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

None of these have anything to do with proving an actual God exists.

And none of it ever will.

Very interesting thread.

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by Cheese

There are many a varied opinion as to the relation...

Daniel Dennett, the philosopher has proposed that religion evolved like a virus, suggesting that it infected our ancestors and continued to spread throughout cultures. Anthropologist Pascal Boyer argued that religious belief is a byproduct of a brain that evolved to detect predators and other survival needs. In this view, the brain developed a hair-trigger detection system to believe the world is full of "agents" that affect our lives. And British biologist Lewis Wolpert, with yet another theory, posits that religion developed once humans understood cause and effect, allowing them to make complex tools. Once they started to make causal connections, they felt compelled to explain life's mysteries. Their brains, in essence, turned into "belief engines."

Based on the above it may be entirely probable that ones position in life as a scientist, philosopher, anthropologist, etc etc would be the base from which to begin a theory or explanation.
None of these have anything to do with proving an actual God exists.

Heeeeeeeeeeeee's baaaaaaaack!
I knew a good religious thread couldnt keep the cheesedoodle away!

[Alpha_Q]

For all its faults, I thought that James Frazer’s The Golden Bough answered the question of “why religion?” by saying that worship was a way to bring about a means of controlling the uncontrollable. By placing a spirit or divine being in charge of a natural phenomenon, humans were able to control the phenomenon by appeasing the spirit/god.
The evolution of religion involved the rise of monotheism, as it was more efficient to worship one god rather than many, and people realized that not only did religion provide a sense of control (as false as it was) over nature, it could also provide a genuine control over populations.
I believe that is where we are today, where religion has as much to do with the spiritual comfort of the believer as it does with the control over the same believer.
Perhaps this is slipping as the church and state separate. Fundamentalist regimes and attempts to bring the church back into political power aside, I think that as society becomes more intellectual as a whole, the less influence deity-based religion will have.
Today, religion gives the believer comfort in a world that does not make sense. Of course, violence has always been with us, and the world has never made much ‘sense’.
One would think that if a society becomes more violent and unpredictable, the religion would falter, but it seems to become stronger, as people cling to a belief that no matter what happens, someone is in charge, and everyone will be judged. The devout will ultimately be rewarded, while those who are responsible for the calamitous nature of society, no matter how well they succeeded in life, and those who use improper fonts on message boards, will be punished in death.
I often wonder what religion will evolve into. In the long run, are we going to lose our belief in a supernatural deity, and replace it with a belief in the nature of humankind, where it may do more good, or will it de-evolve to a worship of earth, not so much as a means to try top coerce nature into giving us what we want, but rather, a big ‘thank you’ for giving us the bounty that we have received?
Having written all that, I’ll now read the article, and see what kind of moron I’ve come across as.

[Azure]

Its no secret that religion has a lot to do with the conflicts throughout the world, but it seems a bit ignorant to think as people get smarter they will forsake their faith and follow science, or humanity for that matter.

I don't find science and religion mutually exclusive. Nor do I think we will ever 'prove' that God exists, or doesn't exist for that matter.

And I fully agree that religion for the most part is about having control....although I don't find anything about the Christian faith controlling.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Azure

Its no secret that religion has a lot to do with the conflicts throughout the world, but it seems a bit ignorant to think as people get smarter they will forsake their faith and follow science, or humanity for that matter.

I don't find science and religion mutually exclusive. Nor do I think we will ever 'prove' that God exists, or doesn't exist for that matter.

And I fully agree that religion for the most part is about having control....although I don't find anything about the Christian faith controlling.

True, but as science becomes more established (relative to historical standards) it becomes expected to question, so religion is sunbect to additional questioning. Some people will not be satisfied with faith. I'm not sure if this is a result of society getting "smarter" or just more expectant of proof and answers.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

but it seems a bit ignorant to think as people get smarter they will forsake their faith and follow science, or humanity for that matter.

Higher education does not necessarily mean smarter, but I think it's fairly well established that people with, for example, a university degree, are less likely to be religious than people who have (or don't have) a high school diploma.

[Alpha_Q]

Originally Posted by Azure

Its no secret that religion has a lot to do with the conflicts throughout the world, but it seems a bit ignorant to think as people get smarter they will forsake their faith and follow science, or humanity for that matter.

I don't find science and religion mutually exclusive. Nor do I think we will ever 'prove' that God exists, or doesn't exist for that matter.

And I fully agree that religion for the most part is about having control....although I don't find anything about the Christian faith controlling.

I don't believe that people will forsake ther faith, but 'their faith' will change, adapt, evolve. Since we are talking about an evolutionary process, it is not something that will take place overnight, or even in one generation.
Nature wastes nothing. Our material bodies break down, become ash and dust, and every atom is recycled. Perhaps a similar fate awaits our spiritual selves as well, and this process might be something that we come to call 'God' (as opposed to an entity sitting on a throne somewhere.)

The Christain faith in it's history is all about control, but I think it's best if we agree to disagree on that right from the outset.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Higher education does not necessarily mean smarter, but I think it's fairly well established that people with, for example, a university degree, are less likely to be religious than people who have (or don't have) a high school diploma.

Strange.

Some of the smartest people I know are religious...or have some sort of religious background.

You have any sort of link for that? Interesting to say the least.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Alpha_Q

I don't believe that people will forsake ther faith, but 'their faith' will change, adapt, evolve. Since we are talking about an evolutionary process, it is not something that will take place overnight, or even in one generation.
Nature wastes nothing. Our material bodies break down, become ash and dust, and every atom is recycled. Perhaps a similar fate awaits our spiritual selves as well, and this process might be something that we come to call 'God' (as opposed to an entity sitting on a throne somewhere.)

Aye, aye. Can't disagree there, as I know my faith has evolved greatly just over the past 2 years.

The Christain faith in it's history is all about control, but I think it's best if we agree to disagree on that right from the outset.

No need. The Catholic church, especially during the Crusades was ALL about control. But my faith is not about control....thats the point I was trying to make.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

Some of the smartest people I know are religious...or have some sort of religious background.

Pretty much everybody has some sort of religious background. And I don't doubt that some of the smartest people you know are religious. My comment was about education and not "smarts", although education is generally the most popular route to "get smarter".

This link isn't very good, but it's a start.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/har...ex.asp?PID=359

[Vulcan]

The way I look at religion is that everyman is born at peace inside. As we go along in our journey we get sidetracked and lose this connection. Some will say, I don't need it, I'm a free human being with a mature mind of my own, the others are suckers. Others will go looking and find religion. Religion tells them, well if you just believe and do good, you will go to heaven when you die or some will say, don't worry you'll find it in your next life. I got to a point where neither answer worked and so I found somethng that reconnected me with this peace. That's a simplistic explanation,but to me religion hasn't got much to do with god, it's just another feel good story of why you can't experience him. This has been repeating itself since man came into this world, so it's not surprising that religion is found in every archaeological dig.