Christmas Inclusiveness

[Devils'Advocate]

There was a similar story in the Calgary Sun recently, but here is the original from Ottawa:
http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/National...69701-sun.html

I know the guy that wrote the original article and I know what he was getting at. Christmas is a crazy time in Canada, far more so than in the United States. We just go overboard on the parties and food and drink and celebrating with families and friends. If such a thing is possible. Now we at Statistics Canada have the last work day before Christmas as "Kids Day" and all parents are to bring their kids to work. Each division does different things. Some bring in a Santa, some bring in Christmas cookies and a punch bowl, one division I worked in brought in Snappy the Christmas Dog who dressed as Santas elf and did tricks. Now I understand where the guy is coming from... we have employees of all races and religious backgrounds. There are Jewish employees, Muslim employees, Sikh employees and, like myself, Athiest employees... all of whom would not wish to bring their children in to see Santa. So, keep them home you say. If you don't want to bring your kids to see Santa, you don't have to. But this is the ONLY day of the year where kids are allowed to come in. If we allowed kids in for Hanukkah, the end of Ramadan celebration, the Sikh festival of light and every other major religious holiday we'd never get any work done (no typical Albertan jokes there... I work harder at Stats than I ever did at any of my 4 private sector jobs ).

The money for these things typically come out of the social committe funds, so all employees contribute to the events by buying food at bake sales or pizza lunches or craft sales. So all employees are chipping in money for Christmas decorations and Christmas events, which I don't think is fair. I think his suggestion was a decent one. Have Santa in one corner of the office floor and a magician in the other. Let the children of other religions have some kind of event as well.

But the fellow who put the article on our internal network has been ripped limb to limb and has been getting many threatening e-mails. Real threats of violence against him by supposedly Christian people. And now the media is piling on and ridiculing him.

I know that those that were angry saw this as an attempt to usurp their holiday and water it down to a P.C. non-Christmas. But I don't see how bringing more people into the celebration destroys the holiday. This isn't about not being able to say "Merry Christmas", it's about including all people in the holiday celebrations.

I've been known to be wrong before; this is just my opinion. We welcome yours.

[Ayrahb]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

There was a similar story in the Calgary Sun recently, but here is the original from Ottawa:
http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/National...69701-sun.html

I know the guy that wrote the article and I know what he was getting at. Christmas is a crazy time in Canada, far more so than in the United States. We just go overboard on the parties and food and drink and celebrating with families and friends. If such a thing is possible. Now we at Statistics Canada have the last work day before Christmas as "Kids Day" and all parents are to bring their kids to work. Each division does different things. Some bring in a Santa, some bring in Christmas cookies and a punch bowl, one division I worked in brought in Snappy the Christmas Dog who dressed as Santas elf and did tricks. Now I understand where the guy is coming from... we have employees of all races and religious backgrounds. There are Jewish employees, Muslim employees, Sikh employees and, like myself, Athiest employees... all of whom would not wish to bring their children in to see Santa. So, keep them home you say. If you don't want to bring your kids to see Santa, you don't have to. But this is the ONLY day of the year where kids are allowed to come in. If we allowed kids in for Hanukkah, the end of Ramadan celebration, the Sikh festival of light and every other major religious holiday we'd never get any work done (no typical Albertan jokes there... I work harder at Stats than I ever did at any of my 4 private sector jobs ).

The money for these things typically come out of the social committe funds, so all employees contribute to the events by buying food at bake sales or pizza lunches or craft sales. So all employees are chipping in money for Christmas decorations and Christmas events, which I don't think is fair. I think his suggestion was a decent one. Have Santa in one corner of the office floor and a magician in the other. Let the children of other religions have some kind of event as well.

But the fellow who put the article on our internal network has been ripped limb to limb and has been getting many threatening e-mails. Real threats of violence against him by supposedly Christian people. And now the media is piling on and ridiculing him.

I know that those that were angry saw this as an attempt to usurp their holiday and water it down to a P.C. non-Christmas. But I don't see how bringing more people into the celebration destroys the holiday. This isn't about not being able to say "Merry Christmas", it's about including all people in the holiday celebrations.

I've been known to be wrong before; this is just my opinion. We welcome yours.

Let me say that, as a Muslim, I really don't care how companies, including mine, choose to celebrate Christmas. I have been working in the same place for four holidays now and never went to a Christmas party. Not because of my religious background, but because the people in my company throw lame parties and they won't let us bring our significant others.

I actually tried to introduce an idea in my former company that they give two days off to non-Christian workers each year to celebrate a religious or atheist holiday or two. Panicking, "they" had meetings about it and I had to shut up.

One thing that does bother me, though, are the people who are purposefully ignorant and try to do this lame proselytizing thing, escpecially around Christmas.

In any case, I am OK as long as I am left alone and I get my time off on both Eids.

My late grandmother told me that my former country had a great "diversity" system in the 1920s. Muslim businesses didn't work on Fridays and Muslim holidays, Jewish on Saturdays and their holidays and Christians on Sundays and theirs.

On another note, St. Nicholas is probably turning in his grave seeing how many people "worship" him instead of his boss during the boss' birthday celebration.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

There are Jewish employees, Muslim employees, Sikh employees and, like myself, Athiest employees... all of whom would not wish to bring their children in to see Santa.

you're an Athiest and wouldn't want your kids to see Santa? i consider myself to be an Atheist as well but i've celebrated Christmas all my life. i don't see it in a religous context at all, it's simply a time for families to get together, exchange gifts, and all that good will towards men and such. i see it the same way as Thanksgiving, Easter, Canada Day, or any other nationally recognized holiday. why should religion be brought into a holiday that doesn't really have anything to do with christianity in the mainstream sense? now if they were setting up something like a nativity scene i could see reason for people to get upset, but the modern day Santa has no ties to any religion. the figure may have started out that way, but Coca-Cola is more reponisble for his likeness now than anything else

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

now if they were setting up something like a nativity scene i could see reason for people to get upset, but the modern day Santa has no ties to any religion. the figure may have started out that way, but Coca-Cola is more reponisble for his likeness now than anything else

Personally, I'm far more offended by Santa Clause than I am by any nativity scene. I *MIGHT* bring a child of mine to a religious event to learn about other people and other cultures and other belief systems. But I wouldn't want the child exposed to the ugly commercialized and materialistic side of the holiday.



Ayrahb put it well:

On another note, St. Nicholas is probably turning in his grave seeing how many people "worship" him instead of his boss during the boss' birthday celebration.

I was surfing around canoe today and came across this:
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Col...9/2703261.html
Good to see I'm not the only one to feel this way about the ugly side of Christmas.

[Winsor_Pilates]

What is religious about Santa anyway?

[Devils'Advocate]

I think we've already touched on that.

But I cross-posted my ponderance over on a Devils board and I've gotten a similar response. "Santa is not a religious icon and therefore why not have the Muslim kids and Jewish kids go see him and tell him what they want for Christmas".

Personally, I don't think that suggestion is going to fly very well with Jewish and Muslim parents. They certainly see the historical ties between Christianity, the wise men and their gifts and St. Nick and are not going to like it being suggested that they adopt Santa Clause into their culture. But historical ties aside, I don't think many Muslim and Jewish families would WANT their kids running up and reaming off a greedy list of extravagances. For many, the concept of Santa runs contrary to their belief system.

[ericschand]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

What is religious about Santa anyway?

Where Santa Claus (historical religious figure) came from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nicholas

The look, as mentioned above, of fat, fluffy beard, red-suit, came from
Coca Cola.

Did they not teach you this in school? I know in grade 6 we were
told about it.

ers

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I think we've already touched on that.

But I cross-posted my ponderance over on a Devils board and I've gotten a similar response. "Santa is not a religious icon and therefore why not have the Muslim kids and Jewish kids go see him and tell him what they want for Christmas".

Personally, I don't think that suggestion is going to fly very well with Jewish and Muslim parents. They certainly see the historical ties between Christianity, the wise men and their gifts and St. Nick and are not going to like it being suggested that they adopt Santa Clause into their culture. But historical ties aside, I don't think many Muslim and Jewish families would WANT their kids running up and reaming off a greedy list of extravagances. For many, the concept of Santa runs contrary to their belief system.

Sorry but what? Greed is purely Christian? I am not Christian in any way shape or form but that last statment of yours is worlds more ignorant than having a Santa at a company Christmas party.

Santa has nothing to do with Christmas and has everything to do with fun and wonder on the part of the children... it sounds like you are getting upset over something very trivial.

[Vulcan]

I was raised in an atheist family and when I was 4 my dad sat me down and told me there was no Santa Claus. I think most kids guess it's a sham and I liked knowing the truth, made me feel more adult. I still played the game, sat on his knee, asked for a present and got my picture taken and chuckled to myself when friends took it seriously . Same game I played at school, when in my day, we had to say the Lord's prayer. I think it worked well and helped make me think for myself when adults tried to indoctrinate me.

My point is that atheists and non christians should tell their kids their truth so they know what's going on and still let them enjoy the better parts of Christmas.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Sorry but what? Greed is purely Christian?

WOAH! HOLD YOUR HORSES! I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING OF THE KIND!!! Actually, many Christians DISLIKE the Santa Clause tradition because of the greedy commercialism it leads to. And many Christians are able to still hold onto the religious aspects of Christmas without being caught up in the pure buying frenzy. What I was saying was that I cannot see the Muslim and Jewish communities embracing the concept of Santa Clause because they wouldn't want their children caught up in the extravagances of Christmas that many Christian children already are.

Let me give a personal example. When I was a child of 9 or thereabouts, my dad used to tease my brother and I. He would say that Santa wasn't coming this year because he was going to spend his time this year helping the poor kids that didn't have enough to eat. We were barely middle class, but we had enough. Atari 2600 on a B/W TV, Commodore 64, first on our block to have a VCR (Beta)... we got by better than most. He would have us near in tears thinking that Santa was going to skip our house to help poor children. We had been conditioned to believe that Christmas was all about recieving stuff. Seeing Santa in the mall wasn't about about meeting a nice jolly elf. Talking to Santa was about getting STUFF. We didn't appreciate how lucky we were compared to others. Like I said, I think Christmas has become two separate entities; the Christian ideal of helping the less fortunate and the Santa ideal of helping ourselves. And our dad was trying to see which side of the line we fell on and we failed every year.

[Sparks]

For most kids, yes, Christmas is about getting gifts. And it's tremendously fun. But, c'mon, that "greedy" attitude doesn't last. I'm sure that all of us here would say the biggest joy of Christmas is giving gifts to friends and family. Many people also take more time to help the less fortunate at this time of year. If you think the holiday is too commercial, well, your family can decide to buy smaller gifts.

It might be unfair to say, but you're coming across as a bit of a stick-in-the-mud. You're focusing on the worst possible interpretation of the holiday.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I think we've already touched on that.

But I cross-posted my ponderance over on a Devils board and I've gotten a similar response. "Santa is not a religious icon and therefore why not have the Muslim kids and Jewish kids go see him and tell him what they want for Christmas".

Personally, I don't think that suggestion is going to fly very well with Jewish and Muslim parents. They certainly see the historical ties between Christianity, the wise men and their gifts and St. Nick and are not going to like it being suggested that they adopt Santa Clause into their culture. But historical ties aside, I don't think many Muslim and Jewish families would WANT their kids running up and reaming off a greedy list of extravagances. For many, the concept of Santa runs contrary to their belief system.

Don't the Jewish celebrate Hanukkah with 12 days of giving?

[Calgaryborn]

There are families within my church[Valley View Baptist Church] who don't celebrate Christmas. Primarily they don't because it is a Catholic holiday. The Catholics actually got the date from some pagan religion and certainly many of the customs associated with the holiday are pagan in origin. Personally I don't have any problem with celebrating aspects of the holiday. I wouldn't want the church to hold Christmas evening or morning services or anything like that, though. Christmas carols are sung but not that many. We know and teach that it wasn't anywhere near Christ's birthday and I told my kids up front that there isn't a Santa Claus as soon as they first asked about him. We will probably have a tree and will exchange gifts and the regular stuff like that.

Because of the convictions of some of the church's membership we haven't had a Christmas play in a few years. There will be some special music I imagine though.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by ericschand

Where Santa Claus (historical religious figure) came from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nicholas

The look, as mentioned above, of fat, fluffy beard, red-suit, came from
Coca Cola.

Did they not teach you this in school? I know in grade 6 we were
told about it.

ers

Thanks, I didn't know that.
Must have missed that class.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Don't the Jewish celebrate Hanukkah with 12 days of giving?

From a Jewish FAQ:

Gift-giving is not a traditional part of the holiday, but has been added in places where Jews have a lot of contact with Christians, as a way of dealing with our children's jealousy of their Christian friends. It is extremely unusual for Jews to give Chanukkah gifts to anyone other than their own young children. The only traditional gift of the holiday is "gelt," small amounts of money.

[LeftWing]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Personally, I'm far more offended by Santa Clause than I am by any nativity scene

Good grief. This thread is a traffic accident.

Bah friggin' humbug.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

From a Jewish FAQ:

Thanks for the link?

[moon]

They want to bring in Santa for employee's kids and people are complaiing about it?

I am glad I don't work where you do with the sourpusses who feel the need to whine about trying to do something nice and fun for kids.

As an atheist I will gladly have my kids go to Santa, be excited about Santa and enjoy the woderment of Christmas. I am not so bitter and jaded that I think that Christmas has to be about greed. I also believe that I will be able to teach my kids that it is not so.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Actually, I would prefer it if Christmas was kept out of the workplace. There are some men undeserving of peace and good will, IMO.

[Devils'Advocate]

Leftwing: Okay. Offended wouldn't be the right word. Put-off maybe. Mostly because the nativity scene was about wise men coming from the King to bring gifts to the family of a simple carpenter. Santa tends to give give more gifts to the rich kids for some reason. I would *like* to see Nativity scene and Christian decorations at work.. far more than I would like to see Santa and elves and gifts. For most people it is the reverse.

Jolinar: http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm

Moon: Nonononononononono.... what was proposed was Santa for the kids that believe in Santa and a magacian or a clown for those that do not. The Christians were upset the their holiday was being usurped and/or undermined and traditions stomped on. The wording was ambiguous "Give the kids an alternative to Santa by bringing in a clown". Like I said, I know the author and I certainly do not believe that he meant that the clown was to replace Santa. But that is how many people are taking it.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I think I've been taken as anti-Christmas. I don't think that true at all. I love the decorations. I love the family outings (I may be an athiest, but my relatives and friends are not). The Christmas feasts and egg nog. I also help out at the food bank in December and participate in the adopt-a-family program at work. The only part of Christmas I don't like is the unnecessary mall frenzy where people put themselves into debt buying things that people don't really need (which is why I have asked friends and family not to buy me anything; if they feel obligated then give the money to charity on my behalf). I enjoy the Christmas season well enough without the gifts.