Multiculturalism not working...Part II

[HOZ]

How Canadian Are You?

Visible-minority immigrants are slower to integrate into Canadian society than their white, European counterparts, and feel less Canadian, suggesting multiculturalism doesn't work as well for non-whites, according to a landmark report.


I am sure I will be labelled again for breaking with dogma but this is an important issue.

[FlamesAddiction]

I don't think it means that multiculturism failed. It just means that we have to do more to combat racism and the ethnocentric attitudes prevalent in Canada.

Edit:

Actually, looking at the results, it paints a much more positive picture. It says that more than half of 2nd generation visible minorities identify as "Canadian", and less than half of 2nd generation visible minorities said they experience discrimination (black people being the only group over 50%). That's a sign that over a generation, they are becoming more integrated.

I admit that it is not perfect, but we can work on it. It certainly isn't hopeless.

[peter12]

It means the Trudeau-ian model of a top-down, government created multiculturalism is an embarassing failure. If the children of immigrants feel more disconnected from Canadian society, there is obviously a problem.

I don't think that means that multiculturalism is bad in anyway. The concept embodies what democracy truly means. However, a multicultural movement that takes place and begins in the attitudes of everyday Canadians is needed for meaningful future change.

[Flames09]

Im a child of an immigrant .. and I'm IMO 150% Canadian, my parents on the other hand to an extent dont feel that way.

[Ozy_Flame]

I was thinking about this very issue the other day.

IMO, although I am a second-generation Canadian and Westernized beyond belief, I do not consider myself to have 'Canadian' blood, I just have 'Canadian roots.' I first-and-foremost have Ukrainian blood, and that will never change - Canada is too young a country to consider it to have its own 'blood,' and is not one of the focal points for the evolution of human civilization. It is far too infant to be given 'blood' status. Hell, I don't even speak Ukrainian and I've never visited Ukraine (yet), but I would align myself with my European place of origin, not my citizenship within the context of self-identification. I am a Ukrainian-Canadian.

Second, I think with the effects of globalization and the general drive for democracy in most corners of the globe, with the intentions of multiculturalism in the civilized world, there are far more people identifying with their genetical homes as a means to differentiate within the mosaic. I truly believe this is why some ethnic groups within Canada embrace a strong ethnical community spirit - they can co-exist as both a Canadian citizen and as an ethnic member of society who identifies with family, friends, and individuals.

To provide an example of this, while it is not in Canada, it exists in New Zealand - a country that has many similar comparisons to Canadian multiculturalism. There is an exclusive Chinese Community of Auckland Phonebook, advertised on billboards and newspaper ads, that states only Chinese citizens of New Zealand can be listed in this book and embrace the Chinese community within the country. While it would seem pseudo-racist (and somewhat elitist) at first, it shows to me a strong identification with their genetical roots in conjunction with their rights to be a Kiwi Citizen.

I think multiculuralism tries to encapsulate the cyclical waves of inherent nationalism within people, and the article to me suggests that it is currently on the upswing, which also suggests that in due time, it will reccess once again.

[ratech]

Even if you did not say you were Ukrainian in your post, I would have to assume that you are. Just joking, but the crap about Canadians not having their own blood is ridiculous. I'm 4th generation. Do you have the blood of an ape?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by ratech

Even if you did not say you were Ukrainian in your post, I would have to assume that you are. Just joking, but the crap about Canadians not having their own blood is ridiculous. I'm 4th generation. Do you have the blood of an ape?

I'm not even going to dignify this with an answer, that's just a ridiculously unreasonable and irrational response.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I was thinking about this very issue the other day.

IMO, although I am a second-generation Canadian and Westernized beyond belief, I do not consider myself to have 'Canadian' blood, I just have 'Canadian roots.' I first-and-foremost have Ukrainian blood, and that will never change - Canada is too young a country to consider it to have its own 'blood,' and is not one of the focal points for the evolution of human civilization. It is far too infant to be given 'blood' status. Hell, I don't even speak Ukrainian and I've never visited Ukraine (yet), but I would align myself with my European place of origin, not my citizenship within the context of self-identification. I am a Ukrainian-Canadian.

I can relate. Most of my family are immigrants, myself being the 1st member of my family born in Canada. While I don't feel totally un-Canadian, nor do I feel multi-culturalism is failing, I do feel a sense of exclusion from Canadians of Anglo heritage.

This was somewhat increased a little bit during the most recent election debates when the leaders of all 3 major parties (Harper, Martin, and Layton) emphaisized their heritage and lineage by stating how long their families have been in Canada and who they were related to in Nova Scotia. While I am sure many Anglo Canadian didn't think about it, it did make many "newer" Canadians feel more like outsiders.

[ken0042]

I guess being a 5th or 6th generation Canadian myself, I see comments like those of Harper et al as simply showing their Canadian pride; not showing off. I often talk about how my family came over in the middle of the 19th century, and some of the sacrifices that they made. Once again not to belittle anybody, but to help show those newer Canadians the value of their citizenship, and to share with them the sense of pride I feel about being Canadian; with the hopes that the pride will be contagious.

[HelloHockeyFans]

nm

[Hakan]

that Chinese immigrants integrate into the Canadian lifestyle because of the size of the immigrant Chinese population there.

Ethnocentrism at its best.

What is the Canadian Lifestyle? By very virtue of us being multicultural means that people bring their cultures here and can practice them which is a defining 'lifestyle' of being Canadian.

It's great that people come here and don't have to learn english if they don't want to. It's great that we have a giant mosaic of different languages, people and cultures. That is Canadian. What's the problem exactly?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Hakan

It's great that people come here and don't have to learn english if they don't want to. It's great that we have a giant mosaic of different languages, people and cultures. That is Canadian. What's the problem exactly?

I suppose part of that is the fact that if they wanted life in Canada to be exactly the same as it was back home; why not just stay at home?

I guess I just don't see something as obvious as not being able to even talk to your fellow citizens as not being a sign of a truely great Canadian culture. Part of us being a "melting pot" is the fact that cultures do indeed melt. Start segrigating cultures and we end up as a country divided.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

IMO, although I am a second-generation Canadian and Westernized beyond belief, I do not consider myself to have 'Canadian' blood,

What is 'Canadian' blood? I don't know if I have it or not. Really, I don't think there is such a thing. A Canadian is just a Canadian. There is no genetic distinction.

For example, my grandparents were all born here (well, one is a Yank, but close enough) and I have a general idea of where my ancestors came from but I don't identify with any other country. Another person could have the exact same history but come from a totally different part of the world and look nothing like me at all. Which one of us has the Canadian blood?

[Hakan]

I suppose part of that is the fact that if they wanted life in Canada to be exactly the same as it was back home; why not just stay at home?

I guess I just don't see something as obvious as not being able to even talk to your fellow citizens as not being a sign of a truely great Canadian culture. Part of us being a "melting pot" is the fact that cultures do indeed melt. Start segrigating cultures and we end up as a country divided.

We are not a melting pot. We are multicultural which means that people import their own cultures.

Why not just stay at home? You're pretty smart, I'm sure you can come up with some pretty good reasons why people would want to move here.

Seggregating? I don't see much seggregation. Sure there are communities where people of different ancestral backgrounds live in and that but they are not seggregated by the definition of that word. There are problems, I will not deny that but I mean really, the Canadian multicultural experiment is working out pretty fantastically.

[housejunk]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I suppose part of that is the fact that if they wanted life in Canada to be exactly the same as it was back home; why not just stay at home?

I guess I just don't see something as obvious as not being able to even talk to your fellow citizens as not being a sign of a truely great Canadian culture. Part of us being a "melting pot" is the fact that cultures do indeed melt. Start segrigating cultures and we end up as a country divided.

With respect, I'd say you're missing the point. Just because they choose to exercise their right to speak their language and express their culture does not mean they want life in Canada to be the same as it was back home. There are numerous reasons why people choose to immigrate to Canada. The fact that they CAN congregate with members of their own culture at their own discretion is part of what makes this country great. You have to realize that there is more to "this country" then those Chevy "our country" commercials portray.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

What is 'Canadian' blood? I don't know if I have it or not. Really, I don't think there is such a thing. A Canadian is just a Canadian. There is no genetic distinction.

For example, my grandparents were all born here (well, one is a Yank, but close enough) and I have a general idea of where my ancestors came from but I don't identify with any other country. Another person could have the exact same history but come from a totally different part of the world and look nothing like me at all. Which one of us has the Canadian blood?

Exactly my point. There is no such thing as Canadian 'blood', there is no genetic distinction. Native Canadians do not even have 'Canadian' blood, because 'Canada' is a term that was coined to appropriate borders for nation-building. I would suggest bloodlines, for caucasians, come from their European ancestry, such as being Anglo, Germanic, Russian, and many other European-based homelands that have far more history than Canada does.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Hakan

Why not just stay at home? You're pretty smart, I'm sure you can come up with some pretty good reasons why people would want to move here.

I guess I wasn't being clear that I was being rhetorical. It is for many of those reasons; such as a lack of freedom, that many people come to Canada.

What I am trying to point out is that if immigrants don't make an attempt to embrace being Canadian, they are missing out on not only what it means to be Canadian, but also missing out on shaping what future generations define as being Canadian. What defines us as Canadian has changed in the last 100 years; and I'd even say within the last 50 years. It is that evolution as a society that makes us such a great company.

Case in point; 30 years ago my best friend was Chinese. (He probably still is, now that I think about it. ) When his family invited my family over for dinner; there was some fumbling with chopsticks before they brought out forks for us. Then last weekend at my sister's house, her whole family started eating Chinese food with chopsticks. It wasn't until partway through that my sister thought to ask if I knew how to use chopsticks; because these days most people I know can use chopsticks. To me; using chopsticks is part of how a Canadian would eat Asian food. It's a tiny example, but it does show how we as a country evolve.

What I really don't understand is how people can say that it is entirely positive that people can maintain each and every part of their culture; including refusing to learn either of our official languages, then turn around and say they don't feel like they are being embraced into Canadian culture. It's like the old joke of the old man complaining to God, saying "Why do you forsake me? Why won't you let me win the lottery just once?" And God responding "Meet me half way- buy a ticket."

Years ago I looked at moving to Finland. The very first thing I did was looked into learning the language; even though I was assured by my Finnish friends that there was no need; as most people spoke English. To me, not learning the native language seemed to be the wrong thing to do.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

My stance and arguments for multiculturalism are still thus - it's not about blood lines, it's about making a commitment to society. And all that Canada asks is that you pay taxes, and obey the rules. What language you speak, and how you choose to conduct your life outside of that is up to you.
Maybe I've been away too long but outside of wanting to watch hockey games and being perceived as generally friendly, I always wondered how someone is supposed to act "Canadian" anyway...

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I guess I wasn't being clear that I was being rhetorical. It is for many of those reasons; such as a lack of freedom, that many people come to Canada.

What I am trying to point out is that if immigrants don't make an attempt to embrace being Canadian, they are missing out on not only what it means to be Canadian, but also missing out on shaping what future generations define as being Canadian. What defines us as Canadian has changed in the last 100 years; and I'd even say within the last 50 years. It is that evolution as a society that makes us such a great company.

Case in point; 30 years ago my best friend was Chinese. (He probably still is, now that I think about it. ) When his family invited my family over for dinner; there was some fumbling with chopsticks before they brought out forks for us. Then last weekend at my sister's house, her whole family started eating Chinese food with chopsticks. It wasn't until partway through that my sister thought to ask if I knew how to use chopsticks; because these days most people I know can use chopsticks. To me; using chopsticks is part of how a Canadian would eat Asian food. It's a tiny example, but it does show how we as a country evolve.

What I really don't understand is how people can say that it is entirely positive that people can maintain each and every part of their culture; including refusing to learn either of our official languages, then turn around and say they don't feel like they are being embraced into Canadian culture. It's like the old joke of the old man complaining to God, saying "Why do you forsake me? Why won't you let me win the lottery just once?" And God responding "Meet me half way- buy a ticket."

Years ago I looked at moving to Finland. The very first thing I did was looked into learning the language; even though I was assured by my Finnish friends that there was no need; as most people spoke English. To me, not learning the native language seemed to be the wrong thing to do.

I totally agree with what you're saying..in a perfect world..but its not a perfect world, and the majority of humans don't want to leave their comfort zone. If its easier for an immigrant to move to an area where people look and sound like them, most people will do that. Same thing with the majority. If its easier to have a group of "different" people segregate themselves than to make an effort to learn about them and make them feel comfortable in your community, then you will let them stay at a distance.

The only thing I take issue with is that you seem to think its largely the immigrants fault for not wanting to integrate. Well, as a son of minority immigrants (first to Britain then to Canada), I can tell you that sometimes new places aren't the most welcoming and accomodating communities. There is strength in numbers, and if you feel excluded and threatened as a minority, you will automatically gravitate to those who accept and embrace you.

[Devils'Advocate]

Globe and Mail article the HOZ quoted seems to have started a trend. Canoe/Sun is doing a 5 part series on tolerance vs racism. Here is the intro piece:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...00577-sun.html

Interesting that 10% of Canadians polled said that they would not want their child to marry outside of their race and a further 16% said it would depend on race. Though I would like to have seen that broken up by how many years the person had been in Canada. Is it the immigrants who want their children to say within their race, or is it the people who have lived here their whole lives.....

During the summer we completed an important project at work. The principle players on the project planned a pool party (unintentional alliteration alert). I met a co-workers fiancee for the first time. She said that her parents, 3rd generation Canadians originally from England were shocked that she was marrying my co-worker from Lebanon. "What?!?! You're marrying a TERRORIST?!?!" they asked her. They were going to oppose the marriage purely based on race until they met the fellow and realized that he had assimilated (drinks beer, watches hockey). It's disturbing to see that kinda sh*t and I hope that my generation won't be like that.