Remember when saying Iraq=Vietnam was blasphemy?

[Agamemnon]

I remember watching this movie "Hamburger Hill" about the Vietnam War. I think the gist was that American soldiers had to continue retaking the same hill in an agonizing pattern of attack, occupy, retreat, attack, occupy, etc. Basically, the attackers aren't interested in the hill, they want to kill the insurgents. So when the insurgents (Vietcong or whatever) melt away, the hill is worthless.

Interesting article here about how Iraqi urban centers are becoming a similar case to Hamburger Hill. Apparently US forces have 'taken' Samarra 3 times in the last 18 months. Technically successful every time (because they occupied they're objective), they leave the area to fight elsewhere. In the meantime, the insurgents come out of hiding and re-occupy the urban center, with the support of the population.

Article even mentions insurgents bold enough to set up a roadblock on a main throughfare.

Warning: article is from a very leftist website, read with caution.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cf...=15&ItemID=6363

[Lanny_MacDonald]

The UK Independent is "very left wing"? Maybe to Ann Coulter.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 10 2004, 05:39 AM
The UK Independent is "very left wing"? Maybe to Ann Coulter.

Nah, Zmag, the site, where the article is hosted, is pretty leftist. They have a shrine to Chomsky at that place.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Sorry man, I thought you were speaking of the Independent. My bad.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Don't excuse it with a label. It's a good read and well-written with a balance of opinion and fact.

Something that doesn't exist on mainstream stations like FOX.

It was published in the Independent, which is a pretty middle of the road paper, in the same neighbourhood as the Guardian, west of the Times and Spectator.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Now Fro, watch what you say. You'll be branded a heretic. If its on FoxNews its the truth. Everything esle is just fringe rhetoric.



BTW... thanks for posting that Soros article. It was brilliant.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by TheCommodoreAfro@Oct 11 2004, 12:33 AM
Don't excuse it with a label. It's a good read and well-written with a balance of opinion and fact.

Something that doesn't exist on mainstream stations like FOX.

It was published in the Independent, which is a pretty middle of the road paper, in the same neighbourhood as the Guardian, west of the Times and Spectator.

You can't reasonably argue the author of the article above doesn't have a point of view that is sharply left of centre. Agree with his opinion or not, but his slant is clear as is the slant of the site judging by their list of contributors. A list of this author's recent articles is illuminating to the point:

http://www.zmag.org/content/AllByAuthor.cf...Iraq&startrow=1

Regarding the original premise of the thread, a comparison to Vietnam, I said in another thread a few weeks ago:

The comparison with Vietnam is best described this way: In Vietnam, the USA tried for years to prop up a friendly government that couldn't command from the population the same morale and belief in mission - the committment to the fight - that the other side could deliver.

In that context, in the end, it has to be about empowering Iraqi's and having them believe and commit to their future as a democracy versus the view of the radicalized other side.

If 24 million Iraqi's don't want Americans there, then Americans can't stay there.

Taking a city and then surrendering it because the locals wouldn't take ownership of the situation via inadequate resources or motivation is definitely a genuine comparison to Vietnam.

This latest venture into Samarra seems to have more thought and genuine resources behind it and seems to be holding. The author is clearly hoping for failure.

If the USA wants to succeed in empowering Iraqi's and hence eventually withdraw its forces in good order, it is in it's interests to promote free and fair elections. The author implies that's not possible but we saw in Afghanistan yesterday, aside from an ink problem, the power the concept of democracy has in even the most unlikliest of places.

From there Afghans and Iraqi's can eventually take over the security of their own country with the same level of motivation as the terrorists in their midst, which would be decidedly contrary to the example of Vietnam.

My opinion.

Regarding FOX, for amusement, Macleans Magazine with a decided ambush of the FOX entry into Canada, a cover story for MacLeans. No pretence at balance in this article either, the very crime they accuse FOX of committing!!:

http://www.macleans.ca/culture/media/artic...004_89710_89710

A sample of quotes MacLeans used to illustrate the subject of Bill O'Reilly:

http://www.macleans.ca/culture/media/artic...004_89716_89716

Their online poll results, and reader comments, as to whether FOX should be allowed in Canada:

http://www.macleans.ca/switchboard/article...929_145930_3832

And a mocking of the MacLean's coverage today by right wing columnist Paul Jackson in the Calgary SUN:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/C.../10/663183.html

Enjoy the fireworks.

Cowperson

[Vulcan]

Can anybody tell me if CBC or CTV news channels are available in the USA and if they are, are they promoted like American newschannels are promoted in Canada? I think not,so why are we so ready to embrace American [eg. Fox News] propoganda when the Americans don't want Canadian propoganda. Each country has their own interests.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Vulcan@Oct 11 2004, 03:19 AM
Can anybody tell me if CBC or CTV news channels are available in the USA and if they are, are they promoted like American newschannels are promoted in Canada? I think not,so why are we so ready to embrace American [eg. Fox News] propoganda when the Americans don't want Canadian propoganda. Each country has their own interests.

Don't take this as a promotion of FOX, but I believe its seen in about 50 or 60 countries. Obviously CNN is seen worldwide.

CBC is seen in border areas of the USA, probably in a similar way you might see a Spokane PBS station. I'm not sure if its accessible further south.

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Paul Jacson doesn't have a clue. The channel he describes does not exist on this planet. The McLean's article is right on the money and most Canadians will find the bias pretty obvious when you watch it. You'll notice that no other network has their anchors or on air personalities take potshots at the "other" candidate nor has running commentary on what they feel is happening. It is "talking points" hidden in entertainment pretending to be news. Its cheap and its extremely biased. Beyond that its all good!

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Oct 11 2004, 03:43 AM
CBC is seen in border areas of the USA, probably in a similar way you might see a Spokane PBS station. I'm not sure if its accessible further south.

No, CBC is not shown anywhere off the border. Once you get 50 miles south of the 49th, Canada ceases to exist. Even in big "Canadian" markets like Arizona or Florida. Canada is "the place where the bad weather comes from".

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Oct 10 2004, 08:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Oct 10 2004, 08:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Vulcan@Oct 11 2004, 03:19 AM
Can anybody tell me if CBC or CTV news channels are available in the USA and if they are, are they promoted like American newschannels are promoted in Canada? I think not,so why are we so ready to embrace American [eg. Fox News] propoganda when the Americans don't want Canadian propoganda. Each country has their own interests.

Don't take this as a promotion of FOX, but I believe its seen in about 50 or 60 countries. Obviously CNN is seen worldwide.

CBC is seen in border areas of the USA, probably in a similar way you might see a Spokane PBS station. I'm not sure if its accessible further south.

Cowperson [/b][/quote]
That Fox is seen in 50 or 60 countries is probably more to do with Media Mogul, Rupert Murdoch, buying and kowtowing [to eg. the Red Chinese] then with the quality of its news.

Thank's Lanny for the information on CBC in the USA, maybe a deal could be worked. We bring in Fox on our cable and sattelite and they bring in CBC. Is BBC easily available in the States or are they complete navel gazers in this area.

[Displaced Flames fan]

We can get BBC America. Which is a best of BBC type thing.

I would love to be able to get CBC on a regular basis.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 10 2004, 10:34 PM
We can get BBC America. Which is a best of BBC type thing.

I would love to be able to get CBC on a regular basis.

CBC Newsworld might draw an audience south of the border, especially if they included their sports programing.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Vulcan+Oct 11 2004, 05:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vulcan @ Oct 11 2004, 05:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Displaced Flames fan@Oct 10 2004, 10:34 PM
We can get BBC America. Which is a best of BBC type thing.

I would love to be able to get CBC on a regular basis.

CBC Newsworld might draw an audience south of the border, especially if they included their sports programing. [/b][/quote]
I'm interested in The National, because I have family in Canada and I'm interested in what is going on there.

I'm also a big fan of David Suzuki and would love to see "The Nature of Things" every week.

Those are personal preferences though and I understand those views probably aren't shared on a National scale.

Speaking of sports....did you know the NHL network is a Canada only thing? That's a crime.