Quebec's Racism

[Calgaryborn]

I know many of you liberal types don't like Ted Byfield but he does present an opinion that is thought provoking and thankfully not always political correct. If your blind hatred of him precludes you from fairly weighing the validity of his positions fairly: please ignore the posted link provided.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52110

I was surprised earlier this week to read in some other thread here that certain ethnic groups had a harder time gaining entrance to night clubs in Calgary. I wonder if we Canadians are a lot more racist than I like to think.

"Racist" is of course a label that both liberals and conservatives use to diminish an opponents opinion. The terms "liberal" and "neo-conservative" are also labels used as an excuse to minimize someones thoughts. Is labeling to disregard someone because you don't like their ideology somehow less of a sin then labeling and disregarding someone because of their ethnic origin?

Personally I think racial profiling has some positives. If you own a store and have found that a certain age group and/or a certain ethnic group are always the ones found shop lifting wouldn't you be wise to watch that age and ethnic group more closely? Wouldn't you be wise to instruct your employees to do the same? I think so. I also think that if I was part of security at an Airport I would watch those of Arab origin or who appeared to be Muslim more closely. Does that make me a racist? Maybe.

[Hack&Lube]

Racial profiling and discrimination is the most ridiculous and backwater in Calgary than in any other major Canadian city.

I'm Asian and have been kept out of clubs multiple occasions - so much that it's disgusted me and I don't want to go through the experience again. I've tested it out once, and was rejected from 6 in a row one night by discriminatory bouncers. B.S. like wanting 5 pieces of ID, not being 25 (when other non-ethnic minority friends that were with me and also not 25 got in ahead of me), Not having proper attire (when again, other friends with sneakers and jeans got into tantra when we tested it out one night)....and just a whole lot of other bs, manhandling, and arrogance.

I had friends from Vancouver and Toronto who encountered this racist crap at Calgary clubs and were disgusted and shocked as they had never had this happen to them in their own cities.

I try to defend Alberta from redneck comments that people from other provinces make because I love this place, but in regard to Calgary and certain aspects of it, I think that description is fully accurate if even a little too lenient.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Racial profiling and discrimination is the most ridiculous and backwater in Calgary than in any other major Canadian city.

I'm Asian and have been kept out of clubs multiple occasions - so much that it's disgusted me and I don't want to go through the experience again. I've tested it out once, and was rejected from 6 in a row one night by discriminatory bouncers. B.S. like wanting 5 pieces of ID, not being 25 (when other non-ethnic minority friends that were with me and also not 25 got in ahead of me), Not having proper attire (when again, other friends with sneakers and jeans got into tantra when we tested it out one night)....and just a whole lot of other bs, manhandling, and arrogance.

I had friends from Vancouver and Toronto who encountered this racist crap at Calgary clubs and were disgusted and shocked as they had never had this happen to them in their own cities.

I try to defend Alberta from redneck comments that people from other provinces make because I love this place, but in regard to Calgary and certain aspects of it, I think that description is fully accurate if even a little too lenient.

Racial profiling like that is hard to justify. I would be ****ed off to if a club wouldn't let me in and all you wanted to do was spend money. Racial, gender or age profiling for security reasons is very justifiable. Canada needs to do more of it.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Racial profiling and discrimination is the most ridiculous and backwater in Calgary than in any other major Canadian city.

I'm Asian and have been kept out of clubs multiple occasions - so much that it's disgusted me and I don't want to go through the experience again. I've tested it out once, and was rejected from 6 in a row one night by discriminatory bouncers. B.S. like wanting 5 pieces of ID, not being 25 (when other non-ethnic minority friends that were with me and also not 25 got in ahead of me), Not having proper attire (when again, other friends with sneakers and jeans got into tantra when we tested it out one night)....and just a whole lot of other bs, manhandling, and arrogance.

I had friends from Vancouver and Toronto who encountered this racist crap at Calgary clubs and were disgusted and shocked as they had never had this happen to them in their own cities.

I try to defend Alberta from redneck comments that people from other provinces make because I love this place, but in regard to Calgary and certain aspects of it, I think that description is fully accurate if even a little too lenient.

I wonder has the press has ever done any features on this situation. If the local press doesn't see it as a story I bet the national press will. I could see the Fifth Estate being interested. They could do an undercover survey of all the major cities in Canada to see which had the worsed night clubs.

[Jayems]

Can someone explain this to me, and I'm being 100% honest because I want to understand.

When black people start their own clubs, and label them as "black" clubs why isn't that considered segregation and racist since other ethnic groups aren't allowed to join, or believed not able to join by the name of the group.

Black Student Associations
Black Lawyer Association...

Know what I mean? What if someone were to start a White Students Association, would that not be seen as racist and segretative?

I can't find 1 association that isn't related to the KKK that is called a "white association".


I honestly don't know, so spare me the "your just being racist" crap. I want to see it from someone else's perspective.

[jolinar of malkshor]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Can someone explain this to me, and I'm being 100% honest because I want to understand.

When black people start their own clubs, and label them as "black" clubs why isn't that considered segregation and racist since other ethnic groups aren't allowed to join, or believed not able to join by the name of the group.

Black Student Associations
Black Lawyer Association...

Know what I mean? What if someone were to start a White Students Association, would that not be seen as racist and segretative?

I can't find 1 association that isn't related to the KKK that is called a "white association".

The problem is the only people that can really be openly racist against are the white people. I shouldn't even call it racist because it's not really but like you say, a minority group can have their own exclusive club, but....if that was tried with just white people...then it would be racist. I for one don't think it is racisit either way...you want a black group...have a black group...me personally I could care less if you don't let me in to your club...obviously there are some similarities so that is why groups are formed.

People are just to damn sensitive.

Now I am never going to here the end of it.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Can someone explain this to me, and I'm being 100% honest because I want to understand.

When black people start their own clubs, and label them as "black" clubs why isn't that considered segregation and racist since other ethnic groups aren't allowed to join, or believed not able to join by the name of the group.

Black Student Associations
Black Lawyer Association...

Know what I mean? What if someone were to start a White Students Association, would that not be seen as racist and segretative?

I can't find 1 association that isn't related to the KKK that is called a "white association".


I honestly don't know, so spare me the "your just being racist" crap. I want to see it from someone else's perspective.

I agree with you. I suppose the idea is these associations started because blacks were down-trodden by society and needed to pull together and help one another succeed. Unfortunately many of them have turned into hotbeds of racism themselves.

Free speech and free association are absolutely fundamental principles that our society was founded upon. We have racist groups within our ethnic communities who want to take those freedoms away from us.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by fotze

We need stronger race profiling in all aspects. There is still some dignity that remains in some that needs to be stripped.

Racial profiling doesn't have to led to a stripping of dignity. When I was a teenager there was a department store down town who had obviously been hit by teenage shoplifters a few times. If I went in that store at lunch hour I would be followed by one of the staff. If I didn't appear to have a purpose for being there I would be asked if I needed any help. Did I like it? No. But what they did was right. I had the choice to not shop at that store if I didn't like it.

Profiling is only wrong if you pass sentence on the individual without cause. Asking the question isn't wrong.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Racial profiling doesn't have to led to a stripping of dignity. When I was a teenager there was a department store down town who had obviously been hit by teenage shoplifters a few times. If I went in that store at lunch hour I would be followed by one of the staff. If I didn't appear to have a purpose for being there I would be asked if I needed any help. Did I like it? No. But what they did was right. I had the choice to not shop at that store if I didn't like it.

Profiling is only wrong if you pass sentence on the individual without cause. Asking the question isn't wrong.

Asking the question is wrong. Assuming someone is guilty because of the colour of their skin is wrong. They should be treated fairly until they give reason for otherwise.
I would argue that the stores that profile youth are wrong as well.
And it doesn't matter if there's a choice to shop there. Having to make that choice because of discrimination is wrong. In Canada, we shouldn't have to make that choice.

edit: just to add

Is labeling to disregard someone because you don't like their ideology somehow less of a sin then labeling and disregarding someone because of their ethnic origin?

Not sure if this was quoted from the article or your own thought, but I find it to be extremly flawed logic.

An ideology is something that one person can control and change. It also tells about a persons thoughts and attitudes. Ethnicity can not be changed and is not a fair way of judging a persons character either.
Descriminating someone for something they have absolutely no control of, and that doesn't even tell you anything about their personality is completly different and wrong.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Can someone explain this to me, and I'm being 100% honest because I want to understand.

When black people start their own clubs, and label them as "black" clubs why isn't that considered segregation and racist since other ethnic groups aren't allowed to join, or believed not able to join by the name of the group.

I believe the idea is that most associations already are "white associations" in a sense. Minorities sometimes feel the need to have that extra social group to make up for being a minority which may be limiting to begin with.
It's a way for their community to have a stronger voice and actually be able to contribute with the majority voice(which is mostly white). It's easier for a group of black people to be heard against the white majority then it is for 1 black person.

I'm not saying I agree with this, but this is why I would say they exist. Personally, I'm kind of split on the issue. Idealy, they wouldn't be necessary because minorities would be treated equaly in the first place and we wouldn't have to continuously divide ourselves by race.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Can someone explain this to me, and I'm being 100% honest because I want to understand.

"Listen up. I got a question for ya. If there can be a Ms. White Beauty Pagent then why the f*** can't there be a Ms. Black Beauty Pagent... F***! I mean, if there can be a Ms. Black Beauty Pagent, then why can't there be a G.D. white one?. Answer this."
If anyone knows what that's from, you get 10 points, redeemable nowhere.

I think there is more of an argument against beauty pagents and black comedy competitions than black student associations. Black student associations are supposed to represent minority concerns given that they are likely misrepresented, or at least underrepresented in the majority power structure. I can tell you that during all my years of university at St. Marys I can't remember there being 1 black member of the student association.

There was a bar fight recently here in Ottawa where several Somalis (late teens early 20s) got into a fight with several university jocks. The police arrested all of the black Somalis and left the jocks off with a warning, but the staff at the bar told the newspapers that it was the jocks that started the whole thing. A Somali community organization organized a letter writing campaign to the mayor which resulted in the Ottawa police apologizing and starting an internal investigation. It gave the power to stop discrimination to the black community. I think these kind of organizations are absolutely necessary.

The defenders of black beauty pagents and black comedy competitions claim that these are to give a leg up to people that wouldn't otherwise get the opportunity to do what they love doing. They claim that given that black people are still, on average, making far less money than white people that these are ways for the black community to promote their own.

I buy the former, not so sure on the latter. But one thing I am sure of; there is no need to have a white student association to represent white views and concerns to the black/asian/hispanic power structure.

[Jayems]

I won't post the link, but the comments on youtube on that Global TV racism in Calgary bars is sick.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

"Listen up. I got a question for ya. If there can be a Ms. White Beauty Pagent then why the f*** can't there be a Ms. Black Beauty Pagent... F***! I mean, if there can be a Ms. Black Beauty Pagent, then why can't there be a G.D. white one?. Answer this."
If anyone knows what that's from, you get 10 points, redeemable nowhere.

I think there is more of an argument against beauty pagents and black comedy competitions than black student associations. Black student associations are supposed to represent minority concerns given that they are likely misrepresented, or at least underrepresented in the majority power structure. I can tell you that during all my years of university at St. Marys I can't remember there being 1 black member of the student association.

There was a bar fight recently here in Ottawa where several Somalis (late teens early 20s) got into a fight with several university jocks. The police arrested all of the black Somalis and left the jocks off with a warning, but the staff at the bar told the newspapers that it was the jocks that started the whole thing. A Somali community organization organized a letter writing campaign to the mayor which resulted in the Ottawa police apologizing and starting an internal investigation. It gave the power to stop discrimination to the black community. I think these kind of organizations are absolutely necessary.

The defenders of black beauty pagents and black comedy competitions claim that these are to give a leg up to people that wouldn't otherwise get the opportunity to do what they love doing. They claim that given that black people are still, on average, making far less money than white people that these are ways for the black community to promote their own.

I buy the former, not so sure on the latter. But one thing I am sure of; there is no need to have a white student association to represent white views and concerns to the black/asian/hispanic power structure.

Well put. Exactly the type of response I was looking for.

[jolinar of malkshor]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Asking the question is wrong. Assuming someone is guilty because of the colour of their skin is wrong. They should be treated fairly until they give reason for otherwise.
I would argue that the stores that profile youth are wrong as well.
And it doesn't matter if there's a choice to shop there. Having to make that choice because of discrimination is wrong. In Canada, we shouldn't have to make that choice.

Asking the question is NOT wrong. Assuming someone is guilty because of colour is wrong. Racial profiling is not assuming someone is guilty. It is called risk managment. Why the hell would you stop black people if you are looking for a group of white supremesits???? Makes absolutly no sense. Why the hell would you search a 90 year old lady boarding a plane if your looking for young or middle aged men???? But this happens because heaven forbid we don't treat everyone equally. Lets waste all our resources looking at people we know aren't the people we are looking for just so we can say "hey, we do it to everyone". Bull****.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Asking the question is wrong. Assuming someone is guilty because of the colour of their skin is wrong. They should be treated fairly until they give reason for otherwise.
I would argue that the stores that profile youth are wrong as well.
And it doesn't matter if there's a choice to shop there. Having to make that choice because of discrimination is wrong. In Canada, we shouldn't have to make that choice.

edit: just to add

Not sure if this was quoted from the article or your own thought, but I find it to be extremely flawed logic.

An ideology is something that one person can control and change. It also tells about a persons thoughts and attitudes. Ethnicity can not be changed and is not a fair way of judging a persons character either.
Descriminating someone for something they have absolutely no control of, and that doesn't even tell you anything about their personality is completely different and wrong.

There seems to be a lot we disagree on. I see no problem with asking the question if it is done with dignity. Also, I understand a person can't change their ethnicity but, they can change the perception of their ethnic group within the majority of society. Arab Muslims could change the perception of their religion by actively speaking out against the violence of the fundamentalists and by cooperating with their capture and prosecution. They as a community have done little of either.

Watch the Mexican community within the US in the next few years. They are experiencing a lot of racism a present but, at the same time their community is achieving significant strides within the work place. As they produce Statesmen and leaders in industry the view of them will change. It has happened before with Italian and Irish immigrants.

[FlamesAddiction]

I think the argument among many non-white groups that some organization are "white" by default, even if the word "white" is not in the name. The claim is that many organizations either actively or passively discriminate against non-whites.

I'm not qualified to say whether or not these claims are true, but it is quite possible. Although I realize racism is a real problem, many claims of racism are not. For example, I am white and have been unjustly treated by police and denied access to certain clubs because I don't fit their desirable template. When it happens to a non-white person, it is often seen as racism, when it may actually just be a more general kind of discrimination. This is not entirely directed at you H&L, because I trust that you understand your own situation better than me of course.

Sort of on a related note, I was at a Vancouver club last summer where a black person was trying to pick a fight with one of my white friends. My friend wanted nothing to do with him and basically told him where to go. As we were walking away, the black guy started yelling; "That guy just called me a n*****!!"... when in fact, nothing like that was said. My friend is one of the most non-racist guys you would ever meet. Needless to say, this caused a big crowd of people to come over advocating killing my friend. Fortunately, the police were called and we were able to leave.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Asking the question is NOT wrong. Assuming someone is guilty because of colour is wrong. Racial profiling is not assuming someone is guilty. It is called risk managment. Why the hell would you stop black people if you are looking for a group of white supremesits???? Makes absolutly no sense. Why the hell would you search a 90 year old lady boarding a plane if your looking for young or middle aged men???? But this happens because heaven forbid we don't treat everyone equally. Lets waste all our resources looking at people we know aren't the people we are looking for just so we can say "hey, we do it to everyone". Bull****.

I'm not saying we should check everyone as your examples state. I'm saying the exact opposite. We should use more intellegence so we need to check less people.

Using your own example, if we're looking for white sepremesists, should we stop every single white person and question them?

Should we have questioned every white kid who went to school after Columbine and Taber, because they fit the profile of a school shooter at that time?

This seems to be what you favor, but wouldn't that be a huge waste of resources?

also, just wondering... What are your thoughts on the Japanese internment?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

There seems to be a lot we disagree on. I see no problem with asking the question if it is done with dignity. Also, I understand a person can't change their ethnicity but, they can change the perception of their ethnic group within the majority of society. Arab Muslims could change the perception of their religion by actively speaking out against the violence of the fundamentalists and by cooperating with their capture and prosecution. They as a community have done little of either.

I agree with the part about speaking out against fundamentalists.

But what if the perception people have about that ethnic group is wrong to begin with?
Shouldn't we hold the ignorant labelers acountable?

Also, how do you ask the question with dignity? For example, please tell me how you would ask a brown person if they're a terrorist with dignity? The implication itself has no dignity. It doesn't matter much how you word it.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I agree with the part about speaking out against fundamentalists.

But what if the perception people have about that ethnic group is wrong to begin with?
Shouldn't we hold the ignorant labelers accountable?

Also, how do you ask the question with dignity? For example, please tell me how you would ask a brown person if they're a terrorist with dignity? The implication itself has no dignity. It doesn't matter much how you word it.

Ignorant labelers should be held accountable. Not by laws that restrict free speech but, rather by challenging them with the truth. We had a known white supremacist move to a community just outside of town. He was known as a recruiter for there movement often targeting white teens. He and his family moved after about four months because the response he received from the community. People organized and got information out about his recruiting tactics and his obnoxious beliefs. His bile didn't have a chance.

I suppose in a sense there is a loss of dignity. You mentioned about the folly of labeling all whites as racists because of a few white supremacists. Well what if they dress like the skin heads? Am I causing them an undue loss of dignity if I asked them if they are? I think harm is done if I label them as such and treat them differently without the question. I think just as much harm is done if I don't ask and let a threat to my small community walk about unchallenged.

I am separated from my wife and have full custody of my two young boys. Because I'm a man in order to take my boys across the American border I have to provide my separation agreement along with their birth certificates. Also, I and they get asked more questions than if I was their mother. Do mothers abduct children? Of course but, mothers more commonly have custody and fathers account for the vast majority of abductions. I guess you could say that every time I take them across the border I suffer a loss of dignity. If that is the case I gladly surrender that loss for the greater good of society: The protection of our children.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Sort of on a related note, I was at a Vancouver club last summer where a black person was trying to pick a fight with one of my white friends. My friend wanted nothing to do with him and basically told him where to go. As we were walking away, the black guy started yelling; "That guy just called me a n*****!!"... when in fact, nothing like that was said. My friend is one of the most non-racist guys you would ever meet. Needless to say, this caused a big crowd of people to come over advocating killing my friend. Fortunately, the police were called and we were able to leave.

Happens all the time. My mother works at a call centre for a cell phone company (fixes problems with service, billing errors, etc). She is a manager, so if someone junior on the floor has an agressive customer, they put their hands up and hand the call over to a manager. She told a customer that he didn't qualify for a certain discount because he hadn't been a client long enough. He told her "You racist *******s. If I was white, you'd be giving me this discount". She, politely as she could, told the customer that they were not on a videophone.

I work with a number of black people and they are all of the same opinion. Jackasses like this take away from legitimate claims of racism. Same as women that claim abuse to get back at a cheating husband. Same as women that claim harassment when they don't get the promotion they wanted. Same as a gay man who yells discrimination because he didn't get a job he wasn't qualified for. There are people out there that yell victim even when they clearly are not, and it hurts the claims of the people who truely are victimized by abuse, harassment or discrimination.