Root of all evil - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

nuckles · 08-13-2006, 09:31 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB2vmj8eyMk

there are a couple parts to this.

REDVAN · 08-13-2006, 09:42 PM

what is it about, before I watch it for 20 minutes per clip?

FlamesAddiction · 08-13-2006, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDVAN

what is it about, before I watch it for 20 minutes per clip?

It's about the alleged dangers of religous extremism.

FlamesAddiction · 08-13-2006, 10:22 PM

I just watched it, and while it makes some good points, I disagree with some of the claims.

I do not think that science and religon are so opposed that they cannot both be accepted by any group of people. Some aspects of some religons, sure... but not all. Not everyone's religious beliefs fit into the extreme orthodox Abrahamic template. Not everyone's religious beliefs include miracle healings and immaculate conceptions.

I also disagree with the popular claim that the Catholic Church's "no condom" guideline is responsible for a great human toll in the battle against AIDS. I posted the data here before (and will again if someone asks), but predominantly Catholic countries have relatively low numbers of people with AIDS. This is because other aspects of Catholicism (ie. abstinence and monogamy) fight AIDS more than condoms. If someone is holding onto the "no condom" rule as an excuse for having unprotected sex, but then breaks the other rules of Catholic belief, then how can it be the fault of religon? It is worth mentioning as well that most Africans are not Catholics.

The problem with the spread of AIDS in Africa has more to do with ancient superstition and lack of education. On CBC radio last week, they talked to a woman who was in Zambia and described how the country had to put up billboards warning people that, (and I quote) "raping a young child does not cure AIDS". It's things like that which are the problem.

Flash Walken · 08-13-2006, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I just watched it, and while it makes some good points, I disagree with some of the claims.

I do not think that science and religon are so opposed that they cannot both be accepted by any group of people. Some aspects of some religons, sure... but not all. Not everyone's religious beliefs fit into the extreme orthodox Abrahamic template. Not everyone's religious beliefs include miracle healings and immaculate conceptions.

I also disagree with the popular claim that the Catholic Church's "no condom" guideline is responsible for a great human toll in the battle against AIDS. I posted the data here before (and will again if someone asks), but predominantly Catholic countries have relatively low numbers of people with AIDS. This is because other aspects of Catholicism (ie. abstinence and monogamy) fight AIDS more than condoms. If someone is holding onto the "no condom" rule as an excuse for having unprotected sex, but then breaks the other rules of Catholic belief, then how can it be the fault of religon? It is worth mentioning as well that most Africans are not Catholics.

The problem with the spread of AIDS in Africa has more to do with ancient superstition and lack of education. On CBC radio last week, they talked to a woman who was in Zambia and described how the country had to put up billboards warning people that, (and I quote) "raping a young child does not cure AIDS". It's things like that which are the problem.

The catholic church is involved in an active information campaign which says condoms will not protect against HIV/AIDS, both in Africa and South America. That is a crime of genocidal proportion and should be treated as such. It is absolutely indefensible to be spreading that kind of misinformation.

FlamesAddiction · 08-13-2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The catholic church is involved in an active information campaign which says condoms will not protect against HIV/AIDS, both in Africa and South America. That is a crime of genocidal proportion and should be treated as such. It is absolutely indefensible to be spreading that kind of misinformation.

That's the first I ever heard of that. Where did you hear that?

I honestly do not believe that is true.

Flash Walken · 08-13-2006, 10:48 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story...059068,00.html

Edit: it should also be noted that the vatican's original position on condoms was that not only did they not help contain the spread of HIV/AIDS, but that condoms actually increased one's chances of contracting the disease.

CaptainCrunch · 08-13-2006, 11:02 PM

Honestly I don't disagree with that position on Condoms, while they offer some protection, they are not a guarateed protection from the aids virus, the only guarantee is not having sex. But I don't think thats going to happen, and I also think its unwise to say that Condoms will for sure protect you from contracting the Aids virus.

Flash Walken · 08-13-2006, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Honestly I don't disagree with that position on Condoms, while they offer some protection, they are not a guarateed protection from the aids virus, the only guarantee is not having sex. But I don't think thats going to happen, and I also think its unwise to say that Condoms will for sure protect you from contracting the Aids virus.

That's the key! Tell an entire continent to stop having sex!

CaptainCrunch · 08-13-2006, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story...059068,00.html

Edit: it should also be noted that the vatican's original position on condoms was that not only did they not help contain the spread of HIV/AIDS, but that condoms actually increased one's chances of contracting the disease.

BTW, the Vatican itself dosen't have an official position on the use of condoms, to protect yourself from aids. Your ignoring statements from other cardinals such as

Javier Lozano Barragan of Mexico, told The Associated Press recently that condoms could sometimes be condoned — such as when a woman can't refuse her HIV-positive husband's sexual advances — since preserving her life is paramount. "You can defend yourself with any means," he said.

Or

cardinal, Godfried Danneels of Belgium, told a Catholic TV program that if an HIV-positive person insists on having sex, "he has to use a condom. Otherwise he will commit a sin" by risking transmission of a potentially fatal virus.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in608255.shtml

But since its so much fun to paint the church as an evil organization . . .

CaptainCrunch · 08-13-2006, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

That's the key! Tell an entire continent to stop having sex!

Its the only way to guarantee that your not going to contract the virus, so whats wrong with that message, instead of saying use a condom it will protect you from contracting HIV, whats the matter with putting everything out there. There are cases where people who have used condoms have been infected either through poor quality, improper usage, and the unknown factor.

FlamesAddiction · 08-13-2006, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story...059068,00.html

Edit: it should also be noted that the vatican's original position on condoms was that not only did they not help contain the spread of HIV/AIDS, but that condoms actually increased one's chances of contracting the disease.

When the other alternative is abstinence, then condoms do promote AIDS. Abstinence is the only thing that is 100% effective, and while condoms are highly effective, once in a while people still contact HIV when using them. While the church's assertation in that story is stupid (ie. that condoms have holes that viruses can fit through), it is true that they don't always work.

So promoting something that is 100% effective over something that is less than that, is not genocidal - quite the opposite actually.

And like I said, Catholic countries tend to have lower rates of HIV infections. They must be doing something right.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...ing-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/re...-as-percentage

No correlation:

http://www.nationmaster.com/plot/rel...aid_percap/all

V · 08-13-2006, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

That's the key! Tell an entire continent to stop having sex!

It's about as likely to succeed as telling an entire continent to use a condom.

REDVAN · 08-13-2006, 11:18 PM

I am watching the episodes now. Quite polar viewpoints, but that is the point of this sort of thing- to expose what people take for granted and get them to thinking.

Flash Walken · 08-13-2006, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

When the other alternative is abstinence, then condoms do promote AIDS. Abstinence is the only thing that is 100% effective, and while condoms are highly effective, once in a while people still contact HIV when using them. While the church's assertation in that story is stupid (ie. that condoms have holes that viruses can fit through), it is true that they don't always work.

So promoting something that is 100% effective over something that is less than that, is not genocidal - quite the opposite actually.

And like I said, Catholic countries tend to have lower rates of HIV infections. They must be doing something right.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...ing-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/re...-as-percentage

No correlation:

http://www.nationmaster.com/plot/rel...aid_percap/all

I'm actually impressed that you went to such lengths to defend a position that is so fundamentally backwards.

Deliberately misleading a race of people regarding the health risks associated with PREVENTATIVE CARE of a disease that will kill at the very least 67 million africans in the next twenty years is systematic genocide.

RougeUnderoos · 08-13-2006, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Honestly I don't disagree with that position on Condoms, while they offer some protection, they are not a guarateed protection from the aids virus, the only guarantee is not having sex. But I don't think thats going to happen, and I also think its unwise to say that Condoms will for sure protect you from contracting the Aids virus.

And wearing a toque when it's -30 doesn't guarantee that your head won't get cold, but it's not a bad idea to wear one. We are never going to stop people from going outside so it's irresponsible to tell them not to leave the house in the winter because toques aren't perfect.

FlamesAddiction · 08-13-2006, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'm actually impressed that you went to such lengths to defend a position that is so fundamentally backwards.

Deliberately misleading a race of people regarding the health risks associated with PREVENTATIVE CARE of a disease that will kill at the very least 67 million africans in the next twenty years is systematic genocide.

How is it genocide? Most of those 67 million you speak of are not Catholics and don't hear or listen to what the Catholic church says.

And as I proved, countries that have a high percentage of people practicing a "Catholic" lifestyle, tend to have LESS people contacting HIV. So wouldn't selling that lifestyle be a good thing in terms of preventing people from getting HIV?

I'm not saying saying the Catholic church is not without fault, but it hardly deserves the piling on it gets.

CaptainCrunch · 08-13-2006, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

And wearing a toque when it's -30 doesn't guarantee that your head won't get cold, but it's not a bad idea to wear one. We are never going to stop people from going outside so it's irresponsible to tell them not to leave the house in the winter because toques aren't perfect.

But people that go out of the house in 30 below weather and depending on a touque as the be all and end all protection are probably going to die, when the safest route is for them to stay inside.

It would be irresponsible to say that touques prevent hypothermia, when the truth is it might protect you, but its not the best protection.

Flash Walken · 08-13-2006, 11:50 PM

The work of the catholic church in africa isn't restricted to just catholics. The catholic church runs countless aids awareness and treatment programs throughout the continent, where the vast majority of those treated are not catholics.

Also, your links prove absolutely nothing other than the poorest countries have the highest per capita rates of aids, a statement which isn't exactly groundbreaking. Also, the data in your links points to the contrary of the point you're trying to make in regards to catholic 'lifestyle' having a positive impact on the transmission rates of HIV/AIDS. France, a country with roughly 90 percent of the population being Roman Catholic, is in the middle of the pack, while other predominantly catholic countries like El Salvador and Brazil are even higher.

Flash Walken · 08-13-2006, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But people that go out of the house in 30 below weather and depending on a touque as the be all and end all protection are probably going to die, when the safest route is for them to stay inside.

It would be irresponsible to say that touques prevent hypothermia, when the truth is it might protect you, but its not the best protection.

It must be pretty ****ing boring to be a virgin locked in your house the entire winter.