Canadian Naomi Kline takes on Bushs' plan for Iraq

[Lanny_MacDonald]

For anyone wanting to know what its been like in Iraq here's a very well written expose on the Iraqi situation by a well respected international journalist... but someone who won't be on FoxNews any time soon so her credability will be sketchy here.

Bagdad Year Zero

[Displaced Flames fan]

Why won't she be on Fox News anytime soon? Does she have an aversion to presenting her views to the highest rated (ie reaches the most people on a daily basis) cable news network in the US?

Would seem to me that most people would want to be on Fox news. I've seen such left leaning people as Michael Moore and Terry McAulliffe as guests on Fox news on more than one occasion.

BTW...still holding to the notion that you are a conservative? Since you've embraced the Bush hatred doctrine (which is fine and is your right) you've got a distinct pattern of rejecting ANYTHING that has anything to do with conservative philosophies. Have you noticed that? I have.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Nope Dis, I have embraced my Libertarianism with vigor. After seeing what being "conservative" is the United States (and it is entirely different from what it is in Canada) I would never want to be associated with a group of self-righteous inbred mouth breathing neanderthals. Since the election has got rolling I have learned a lot about this country that makes me want to puke. Democrats are spineless and won't fight for what's right. Republicans are liers and would sell their mothers to make a buck. Frankly, the whole system is off the rails and the country is tied up character assassination rather than focusing on what ails a nation with serious problems. What this country needs is a swift kick in the ass and a bi-partisan ticket (McCain-Edwards) to breakdown barriers. Hey, maybe in 2008. McCain-Obama? How do you feel throwing your weight behind a political party that is being exposed for nothing but a bunch of crooks?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Sep 27 2004, 01:50 AM
Why won't she be on Fox News anytime soon? Does she have an aversion to presenting her views to the highest rated (ie reaches the most people on a daily basis) cable news network in the US?

Oh yeah, I don't think Fox will be inviting her on. She would destroy O'Reilly in the "Spin Zone". I suspect that would deteriote into a big "shut up" fest in the first 30 seconds of the show.

BTW Dis... I think you should do yourself a favor and watch Outfoxed. I saw it this weekend and was amazed at the number of people that spoke out against the channel. I think you should give it a watch to learn something about the "number one rated News show in America". Just remember that Jerry Springer was number one in America as well. Ironic that Bill O'Reilly started the tabloid TV genre with A Current Affair.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 27 2004, 02:17 AM
Nope Dis, I have embraced my Libertarianism with vigor. After seeing what being "conservative" is the United States (and it is entirely different from what it is in Canada) I would never want to be associated with a group of self-righteous inbred mouth breathing neanderthals. Since the election has got rolling I have learned a lot about this country that makes me want to puke. Democrats are spineless and won't fight for what's right. Republicans are liers and would sell their mothers to make a buck. Frankly, the whole system is off the rails and the country is tied up character assassination rather than focusing on what ails a nation with serious problems. What this country needs is a swift kick in the ass and a bi-partisan ticket (McCain-Edwards) to breakdown barriers. Hey, maybe in 2008. McCain-Obama? How do you feel throwing your weight behind a political party that is being exposed for nothing but a bunch of crooks?

That's just it, I don't throw my weight behind a party. I don't vote the party line. I tend to have conservative views when they are weighed overall, that doesn't mean I embrace all conservative views or reject all liberal views....and that was my point. You seem to be rejecting everything conservative. I don't think you have to do that to oppose the Republican ticket.

As for you kick in the pants ticket.....not sure I'd have a hard time casting a vote for a ticket like that....of course, I know very little about Obama and would have to know more. But even conservative pundits I have heard talk about him have been extremely complimentary. I know John McCain and have supported him in the past, so no problems there.

I guess my point is that nothing is black and white when you are talking about conservatives and liberals or democrats and republicans. You really come off as if it is black and white. I think many of the younger Canadian posters here would be stunned to find out about the young black Republicans that exist...as just one example of there being no solid lines.

NOTE: When I say black and white I don't mean race.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Sep 27 2004, 02:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Sep 27 2004, 02:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Displaced Flames fan@Sep 27 2004, 01:50 AM
Why won't she be on Fox News anytime soon? Does she have an aversion to presenting her views to the highest rated (ie reaches the most people on a daily basis) cable news network in the US?

Oh yeah, I don't think Fox will be inviting her on. She would destroy O'Reilly in the "Spin Zone". I suspect that would deteriote into a big "shut up" fest in the first 30 seconds of the show.

BTW Dis... I think you should do yourself a favor and watch Outfoxed. I saw it this weekend and was amazed at the number of people that spoke out against the channel. I think you should give it a watch to learn something about the "number one rated News show in America". Just remember that Jerry Springer was number one in America as well. Ironic that Bill O'Reilly started the tabloid TV genre with A Current Affair. [/b][/quote]
It's funny...people complain about Fox and then bring up O'Reilly. The guy has a one hour show (or is it a half?). He is not the mascot for the network. I personally don't like the guy. He's too pompous for me.

Fox News, however, as a news reporting network is legitimate and quite good.

If you don't like the conservatively slanted magazine shows they put on at night, that's fine..but don't dismiss the entire news network based on that. How many of the people on "Outfoxed" (WTF is that anyway?) were talking about news reporting and how many were talking about O'Reilly and Shawn Hannity?

[Table 5]

great article btw....took me almost an hour to get through it all, but it sure was an interesting read. Not hard to see where her viewpoints lie, but the storytelling itself was quite compelling.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Sep 26 2004, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Sep 26 2004, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Oh yeah, I don't think Fox will be inviting her on. She would destroy O'Reilly in the "Spin Zone". I suspect that would deteriote into a big "shut up" fest in the first 30 seconds of the show.

BTW Dis... I think you should do yourself a favor and watch Outfoxed. I saw it this weekend and was amazed at the number of people that spoke out against the channel. I think you should give it a watch to learn something about the "number one rated News show in America". Just remember that Jerry Springer was number one in America as well. Ironic that Bill O'Reilly started the tabloid TV genre with A Current Affair.

It's funny...people complain about Fox and then bring up O'Reilly. The guy has a one hour show (or is it a half?). He is not the mascot for the network. I personally don't like the guy. He's too pompous for me.

Fox News, however, as a news reporting network is legitimate and quite good.

If you don't like the conservatively slanted magazine shows they put on at night, that's fine..but don't dismiss the entire news network based on that. How many of the people on "Outfoxed" (WTF is that anyway?) were talking about news reporting and how many were talking about O'Reilly and Shawn Hannity? [/b][/quote]
Trying not to get off topic, but I was flipping channels and stumbled across a 60 Minutes interview with O'Reilly about 5 minutes ago. Kinda shocked at some of the things he was saying (to the best of my extremely flawed memory):

* Previously said that he supported the war in Iraq, but if no WMD's were found he would never trust the Bush admin again.
* Is now pointing more fingers at the Bush admin. Showed an interview of him talking to Bush about the WMD's. Says Rumsfeld is to blame for WMD fiasco, etc.
* Doesn't know who he's voting for. Says Kerry is 'a patriot' and that he's listening to what Kerry has to say before he makes his vote. Doesn't like the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Forget the exact wording he used, but he basically said it was wrong and disgraceful.
* Doesn't consider him part of the 'Right Wing Radio' group. Says he respects Rush Limbaugh for basically being a good businessman in marketing his name and thoughts, but says that Rush's views and 'facts' should not be used as information sources.

I dunno, I thought these points (this was the tail end of the interview so i'm sure there were more) were way different from what many of us would expect from O'Reilly. Wish I coulda seen the full interview...

[Displaced Flames fan]

Yep, and I knew all that about O'Reilly...but I can't stomach him for too long. He just rubs me the wrong way.

There is a lot of assumption that takes place in this forum mostly by those who have made a clear declaration that they stand firmly on the left.

Who can recall what I said about the Swifties ads BTW?

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Sep 26 2004, 09:03 PM
There is a lot of assumption that takes place in this forum mostly by those who have made a clear declaration that they stand firmly on the left.

Yeah, I basically thought O'Reilly stood firmly on the Republican right before I saw that interview. Silly me...

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Sep 27 2004, 02:51 AM
Fox News, however, as a news reporting network is legitimate and quite good.

If you don't like the conservatively slanted magazine shows they put on at night, that's fine..but don't dismiss the entire news network based on that. How many of the people on "Outfoxed" (WTF is that anyway?) were talking about news reporting and how many were talking about O'Reilly and Shawn Hannity?

Actually Dis, FoxNews is brutal at reporting the news. I've always thought that they were more like a big panel show than they were an actual news agent. I also never liked the fact that they were always reporting on the Republican issue of the day, which Outfoxed actually outs as being fact and supports it with FoxNews memos. Outfoxed is not really focused on the personalities but on the content and delivery of the message. If they were looking to do a character assassination on O'Reilly, Hume, Hannity, etc. they could have done a 12 DVD volume. FoxNews is just littered with clips that could nail these clowns to the wall.

As for who is on the documentary and what their credential are, well Walter Cronkite lends his views about what journalism is, and what Fox is not. They also have numerous ex-Fox staff reporters, producers experts (content experts) and personalities to give their input on things. I guess what really caught me off guard was the fact that senior management passes down a memo each day outlining issues that must be mentioned and things to play up on. As well, every slam that you get in on the Democrats is rewarded and viewed as career enhancing. It didn't seem like that was an environment to developing "fair and balanced" journalism. In fact, the statistics presented by a watchdog committee (I can't remember which one) showed that the FoxNews producers brought on 5 Republicans to every Democrat, and that the Republicans were major players compared to the Democrats who were window dressing or new kinds on the block. The Democrats were food for the on air personalities to crew up and spit out.

I would recommend you watch it. Its available at Blockbuster and is at worst an entertaining 100 minutes of footage.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 27 2004, 01:27 AM
For anyone wanting to know what its been like in Iraq here's a very well written expose on the Iraqi situation by a well respected international journalist... but someone who won't be on FoxNews any time soon so her credability will be sketchy here.

Bagdad Year Zero

Good article and I agree she is correct in the premise she identifies, throwing open the borders and letting capitalism do its thing.

The theory is that the cream will rise to the top and eventually drag the proletariat upwards with it.

She is right to say its somewhat unique in its drama, but I would think its not necessarily unique in its spirit.

It sounds and looks like what's happened in a few other places in the world, notably Russia.

As many might recall, the initial transition from state government to capitalism in these places is terrifically unsettling and traumatic just as you saw in Russia where many openly questioned a free market economy in the early years. In comparison to Iraq, instead of a resistance in Russia, you had the mafia gaining hold and lawlessness rampant under the weight of underpaid cops.

In general, the standard of living in Russia suffered horribly in the first years and the people at the bottom of the pile got the worst of it.

The transition is still taking hold, the Yukos scandal a reminder that all is still not as it should be (or maybe it is).

These days, the worst of the economic news seems to be well in the rear view mirror in Russia (aside from that terrorism thing). And it took more than a decade to get to this point.

One story illustrative of the emerging trend in Russia is at the link below. Russian MBA's taking over inefficient, old state businesses and making them profitable is the latest thing going on.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6090140/

There's a lot of pain initially in this kind of transition. That's obvious. It doesn't help that the nutbars are going around trying to turn Iraq back to the 14th century.

That's the unique part of the challenge. Not necessarily the experiment itself.

With Bremer’s laws in limbo, Iraqi ministers are already talking openly about breaking contracts signed by the CPA. Citigroup’s loan scheme has been rejected as a misuse of Iraq’s oil revenues. Iraq’s communication minister is threatening to renegotiate contracts with the three communications firms providing the country with its disastrously poor cell phone service. And the Lebanese and U.S. companies hired to run the state television network have been informed that they could lose their licenses because they are not Iraqi. “We will see if we can change the contract,” Hamid al-Kifaey, spokesperson for the Governing Council, said in May. “They have no idea about Iraq.” For most investors, this complete lack of legal certainty simply makes Iraq too great a risk.

I thought you lefties said there was a puppet government in Iraq? What's this all about?

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

We'll see just how successful those "ministers" are in stopping the Americans from forcing their will on them. I know that it was a pretty complex article to read, but jest of it was pretty obvious. The US tried to go in, parcel off the country's industry (which the Iraqis did not want to have happen), and make a quick buck. Unfortunately they didn't count on the foreign nationals bring in all their own people and raping the country and the citizens economically. This has creates the type of backlash expected. Their little experiment didn't work and they're now in damage control mode trying to get control back. The neo-cons had an agenda, they executed (very well), but didn't understand the potential for the whole thing to go south like it has.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 27 2004, 04:49 AM
I thought you lefties said there was a puppet government in Iraq? What's this all about?

You mean you didn't see Karl Rove's hand up the ass of the Iraqi "President" while he addressed congress? Man, those TV guys are getting really good at producing their camera angles!

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 27 2004, 12:38 PM
We'll see just how successful those "ministers" are in stopping the Americans from forcing their will on them.# I know that it was a pretty complex article to read, but jest of it was pretty obvious.# The US tried to go in, parcel off the country's industry (which the Iraqis did not want to have happen), and make a quick buck.# Unfortunately they didn't count on the foreign nationals bring in all their own people and raping the country and the citizens economically.# This has creates the type of backlash expected.# Their little experiment didn't work and they're now in damage control mode trying to get control back.# The neo-cons had an agenda, they executed (very well), but didn't understand the potential for the whole thing to go south like it has.

Actually, I agree with the author . . . . more waves of international companies will continue to come for the opportunities. If there's a buck to be made, bullets probably won't be enough to stop them.

And I agree with the premise of the article, as I noted in my jibe above, that it will likely be Iraqi's shaping what happens.

But I would also agree, as with Russia and other examples, the transition will be painful up front and probably corrupt.

But I would disagree with the author that this is particularly unique, perhaps the suddeness is, but not the premise.

"Don't you get the idea I'm one of those goddam radicals. Don't get the idea I'm knocking the American system. - Al Capone

This American system of ours . . . call it Americanism, call it capitalism, call it what you like, gives to each and every one of us a great opportunity if we only seize it with both hands and make the most of it." - Al Capone

My rackets are run on strictly American lines, and they're going to stay that way. ." - Al Capone

EDIT: Speak of the devil, just saw this article - China warning that corruption could cause the Communist Party to lose power. Lots of money to be made it China!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3692530.stm

Cowperson

[TheCommodoreAfro]

The brazen lack of respect the plan has for the people of Iraq is actually stunning. One would think that as an invading force, one would want to stabilize the place - that might lessen the desperation of the people a tad, helping the terrorists. Equally stunning is that most people have no idea this whole thing went on, but that's completely off topic.

I'm not sure that Russia can be held out as a beacon quite yet. With Putin stumping and the government control still deep in the media and in the boardroom (just ask that dude who ran Yukos) and the quagmire in the Causcas, I would hesitiate to call it a success.

Countries in the new EU are being integrated the proper way, IMHO. Estonia gets to keep it's cultural values intact and still get an economic boost with membership, and Poland and other "have not" member nations have shown signs of uptick in their economy as production has shifted East. All of this was done in a way that illustrates the diviseness between the old and "new" world today.

China's reforms might be another way in which a state run economy can be transformed into a private one. Seems to be a lot of models out there but the neocons had their utopia already set in order, and they wouldn't be deterred from moving ahead down the wrong path. Funny that Bush's resolve is the same thing, and could just get him reelected....

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by TheCommodoreAfro@Sep 27 2004, 01:40 PM
The brazen lack of respect the plan has for the people of Iraq is actually stunning. One would think that as an invading force, one would want to stabilize the place - that might lessen the desperation of the people a tad, helping the terrorists. Equally stunning is that most people have no idea this whole thing went on, but that's completely off topic.

I'm not sure that Russia can be held out as a beacon quite yet. With Putin stumping and the government control still deep in the media and in the boardroom (just ask that dude who ran Yukos) and the quagmire in the Causcas, I would hesitiate to call it a success.

Countries in the new EU are being integrated the proper way, IMHO. Estonia gets to keep it's cultural values intact and still get an economic boost with membership, and Poland and other "have not" member nations have shown signs of uptick in their economy as production has shifted East. All of this was done in a way that illustrates the diviseness between the old and "new" world today.

I wasn't holding Russia up as a "beacon." Merely noting the fact of what is happening there and the comparison.

Economically, the pain is easing out of Russia, again after a lengthy period of suddenly being doused in the gasoline of capitalism.

Controlling media and the Caucus problem are different matters, basically political choices.

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Corruption runs rampant in any system where one group oversees another. Its just a fact of life you accept when you add the human dynamic to anything. Any group larger than two can lead to corruption and politiking. Sad, but true. Ad money into the equation and you ahve big problems brewing.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Lanny, there is a LOT of news that has nothing to do with Democrats or Republicans. Why do you polarize everything?