Hardwood floor installations...

[tvp2003]

Okay, home buying/renovation newbie needs help

We're purchasing a new townhouse and have to decide whether or not we want to upgrade to hardwood flooring (through the builder or otherwise); it would be just be down the front hallway and into the kitchen/nook/pantry area... about 300 sq.ft in total.

The cost to upgrade through the builder is $12/sq.ft. for a maple hardwood (prefinished, I'm assuming; not sure what grade); would it be cheaper/better to get it done afterwards by a flooring company? If we don't upgrade through the builder, they will put linoleum there instead, so we'd have to rip that out first. I'm a little hesitant to do it myself even though it will be cheaper (because of the linoleum, plus I've never done it before and it might be tricky to install it around the kitchen areas and into the bathroom if we go that route).. it's our first house (a new one at that) and I don't want to f*** it up .

I've been told that generally upgrades cost more through the builder, but I called around and getting hardwood installed seems to be anywhere from $8-12... plus, I think we need to get a humidifier put in as well (which we'd probably end up doing through the builder anyways)...

Anyone have any advice or experience to share?

(BTW, CP is fast becoming the best internet resource for stuff like this, especially if it's Calgary related)

[Antithesis]

We recently moved into a new house with almost the same exact dilemma -- I'm not going to give advice specific to costs/benefits, but when we were deciding, we figured that the extra ~$4000 or so it would cost, when tacked on to our mortgage, would actually end up costing us at least double. It might be an idea to go with a third option ... to wait a while, save for the purchase, and still have it professionally done.

[arsenal]

Get it installed by a flooring company aftewords, or do it yourself. It probably would be alot cheaper in the end.

[ken0042]

The other things to consider is upgrades that would cost more once the place is done. I know it was debated in the new house thread, but the one thing that comes to mind is bathroom rough in for the basement. Mine cost me more to do by myself than it would have cost to get it professionally done by the builder.

Also running cables (RG6, Cat6 network, etc) is more later on.

The other thing I never thought of until doing my bathroom in the basement, is what kind of tub you want. I say this now because the only time you can get a 1 piece tub in is during the framing stage. If you want a 1 piece for the downstairs bathroom it might be an idea to have one set into your basement.

Unless of course money is no object. But I still say it's good to get things done that are expensive to upgrade later. Sounds like you and/or the wife want to make the place as nice as possible. Do you have the cupboards you want? What about the carpeting?

There's all sorts of things you can spend on upgrading your new house. Just make sure you spend it wisely. (which it sounds like you are trying to do.)

[V]

Hardwood is soooo easy. And it doesn't have to be expensive at all. Case in point, just a couple months ago I bought 300 feet of carbonized bamboo for $2.50 a suare foot at Reid's Auction. It looks fantastic. I installed it myself, and was incredibly easy to do. Read up a bit on the net for the little things you need to know about installing hardwood and it'll be a piece of cake.

So I spent $2.50 a square foot, while you're looking at $12. That's $2,850 in savings, just for a small piece of floor.

At these auctions (I've been to a couple) nothing seems to go for more than $4.50 per foot. And they have some really, really nice and pretty stuff. I really liked the chestnut there.

Oh, if you do it yourself, make sure you get an air-assist nailer. You don't even want to try using the manual ones. You won't be able to use your arm for 2 weeks after the install.

[V]

Oh, one other thing, it's really not very hard to remove lino. Just get a handheld scraper and it's done in no time at all. You might also have to remove the extra (do they call it K3??) flooring because it's in the kitchen, but I didn't have a whole lot of trouble with that either. Use a crowbar for the stuff that comes up easy, and a belt sander for the stuff that doesn't. If you're willing to work to save money there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do this.

[tvp2003]

Thanks for the tips... that's why CP rocks

We're definitely doing the upgrades that you can't really do yourself later (like roughed in plumbing for the basement, and roughed in gas line for a BBQ in the backyard), but most of the other 'cosmetic' upgrades (better appliances, bigger cabinets, lights, blinds, berber carpet) are things that we either didn't want or weren't worth the money the builder is charging. Additional cable/phone lines were also something we're considering; however, we're not sure if its worth the extra couple hundred bucks since we have no plans to go high tech anytime soon.

It will probably cost an extra $3500 to $4500 to do hardwood through the builder (including installing a humidifer); while we definitely want to save as much as we can (we're already spending through the teeth for the house itself), we both would like get pay a little extra to get hardwood over linoleum (either now, or by the time we sell 3-5 years down the road because we think it will definitely improve resale value; the advantage of the former is that we can actually enjoy it while we live here). You're definitely right though; when tacked onto the mortgage, it will end up costing more once you add the juice.

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

Hardwood is soooo easy. And it doesn't have to be expensive at all. Case in point, just a couple months ago I bought 300 feet of carbonized bamboo for $2.50 a suare foot at Reid's Auction. It looks fantastic. I installed it myself, and was incredibly easy to do. Read up a bit on the net for the little things you need to know about installing hardwood and it'll be a piece of cake.

If we end up installing it ourselves (and that's a big 'if'), that's definitely a great suggestion and something that I would definitely do... however, I don't consider myself mechanically inclined (installing my own garage door opener to save a couple of hundred bucks is okay, but a $4K flooring job is another story)... plus, it's a new house (probably willing to take a bigger risk of doing it myself if it was older and needed renovations anyway), and the floor layout scares me a little (doing a rectangular room is one thing, but doing a hallway with closet, kitchen with a pantry and nook, and perhaps a bathroom (around the sink and toilet) is little more daunting).

I'll do a little research and if it's as easy as you say it is, it might be worth it to wait... however, the last thing I want to do is end up planning a project but not having the time to actually get around to doing it because I'm too busy with work

[GreenTeaFrapp]

One piece of advice when building a new house - you can never have too many potlights. Oh, and if you're looking to setup a home theatre, get the wiring for the surround speakers put in when you're building.

[V]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

I'll do a little research and if it's as easy as you say it is, it might be worth it to wait... however, the last thing I want to do is end up planning a project but not having the time to actually get around to doing it because I'm too busy with work

Time is always the biggest issue, for me at least.

But, to tell you the truth, don't think I'm a handyman. The first time I'd ever used a skil saw was a month after I bought my first house, when I was 24 years old (I still have all my fingers!). Since that day I've done so many different things that slowly but surely I'm becoming something resembling a handyman, although my work isn't nearly as pretty as the professional's.

The thing about hardwood is that there's so little to screw up, especially with the prefinished stuff. Start square, keep the boards tight before you nail them in, and give yourself about a 1/4 inch space between the boards and the wall. The last piece is always tricky, but doable with shims. It takes some time, though, and a few expensive tools, all of which you can rent for a couple days. A chop saw, air-assist nailer, table saw, chalk line, tape measurer, and that's pretty much it.

I should also add the disclaimer that it was very easy to do, mainly because a have a friend that knows a thing or two about the process. He was a lot of help in the areas where I wasn't sure if I was screwing it up or not.

[V]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

One piece of advice when building a new house - you can never have too many potlights. Oh, and if you're looking to setup a home theatre, get the wiring for the surround speakers put in when you're building.

Uggh. You don't happen to work for Four Star Electric, do you??

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

just to be contrary, if you really want it and plan to stay in the house for a bit, get the builder to do it.

Sure it's more expensive, but you're talking 300 sq ft if I understand right. If you're lucky you'll save $1000, probably less. But you'll gain dealing with another contractor - and doesn't that always go smoothly - plus extra time, hassles, etc.

If you're not sure or want to do it yourself, wait at least 1 year before you put the hardwood in.

If you rip up the floor you'll get nothing but grief from the builder for any fix/service/etc that might be remotely related. Or god forbid the house settles funny and your new hardwood buckles or the humidifier screws up and your paint peels somewhere or whatever - who's gonna fix it? The contractor will blame the builder and vice versa, and you'll be screwed.

After 1 year you'll be on the hook for it all anyway, so c'est la vie. Or maybe you'll want to move and not care anymore.

[Kerplunk]

Another route to consider is laminate flooring. Some of the styles look like hardwood, it's cheaper than hardwood (I think. Home Depot web site has stuff on for about $4/ft), and some of the styles use a tongue and groove attachment system, so its easy to install. We floored our entire cabin with it, as well as a room at home, and it works great. Just a thought.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

Uggh. You don't happen to work for Four Star Electric, do you??

I don't even know who they are. Why do you ask?

[V]

I know a couple guys that are journeymen there, and they can't stop talking about pot-lights. Maybe it's just an electrician thing.

I understand that pot-lights have their place and use, but the electricians I know (and you seem to be the same way) seem to want them all over the house. If my buddy had his way he'd have nothing but potlights in his place.

[tvp2003]

Thanks for the info folks... we're buying a townhouse, so the options and upgrades were more limited compared to building a single family.

And the verdict is... we decided to hold off on the hardwood for now. One of the reasons was that the hardwood that the builder was providing was a lower grade maple; we preferred a more uniform look that you get with 'select or better' (hey, I learned something new today ). We had 4 different color combos to choose from, and at the end of the day, we figured that the color scheme we picked would still look good without the hardwood. Plus, we also saved about $4K off of our mortgage, which is always a good thing

We also tinkered with the idea of getting some tile instead, but it didn't really work with our floorplan (our lino is a 'faux tile' anyways, and it seemed like a waste of money). Plus, I heard it's a pain to try and remove it should we change our minds later. Maybe in a year or two we'll think about upgrading our floors, but for now, I'm sure we'll be very happy with what we've got.

As for the potlights, the upgraded electrical/lighting package was an extra $1000... needless to say, we passed

One last question for the CP experts... I've seen some places sell/advertise 'hardwood laminate'... is that just laminate that is made to look like hardwood, or actual hardwood that has been pre-treated or coated like laminate (like a pre-finished hardwood)?

[Eddie Bronze]

I think fotze had a great experience with some hardwood installers about a year ago, you should talk to him.

LOLOL!

[Eddie Bronze]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

One last question for the CP experts... I've seen some places sell/advertise 'hardwood laminate'... is that just laminate that is made to look like hardwood, or actual hardwood that has been pre-treated or coated like laminate (like a pre-finished hardwood)?

It's not real hardwood. They will probably put down some cushioning first and then it locks and/or glues together over top of that. All it is is just partcile board with a nice finish to give it the impression of actual wood. My folks put it in their kitchen (and old farm house) and they love it. Not sure I'd bother with it if I was thinking about the real stuff down the road, though.

[MacDougalbry]

To make an accurate comparision, you would need to get a quote from a hardwood installer that includes absolutely everything including hardwood toe kicks (on kitchen cabinets), hardwood register vents, stair nosing (on top step of stairs to basement, if applicable), removal and reinstallation of toilet and pedestal sink (if you are doing a half-bath on the main floor, which is common.) Our builder included these things in the per sqft charge, but an aftermarket installer might add these as additional charges. Also, disciples of Mike Holmes are pretty adament that you must install tile or hardwood under your kitchen cabinets, which is nearly impossible if you do it after the fact. (Though your builder may not do this anyway.)

You will have to remove and reinstall your baseboards. They will never look the same. If they are fibreboard, you will probably have to throw them away. Even if you install new ones, they may not look as good... builders typically spray these after they have been installed, this gives a much better finish than brush painting them.

However, if you have really young kids, you might be better off waiting until they are through the "banging things" stage before installing hardwood.

We agonized over this decision as well. In the end, I determined that the builder was using a fairly high quality product (Lauzon) which justified the higher cost, so we went with them for most of our hardwood... but I also installed a small quantity of hardwood in my office myself after taking possession. If I was to do it again, i would just get the builder to do it all.

Of course, it probably depends on the builder as well, and what products they offer.

One thing that you may want to do is make sure that your subfloor is up to snuff. 5/8 OSB is not sufficient. 23/32 is OK.

[V]

Originally Posted by MacDougalbry

You will have to remove and reinstall your baseboards. They will never look the same. If they are fibreboard, you will probably have to throw them away.

My rental house that I just bought has laminate throughout the main floor, and I didn't notice until the second walkthrough, but they just butted up the laminate against the baseboard. It looks hilarious, now that I've noticed it. Good enough for a rental, I figure.

[badnarik]

did you consider vinyl wood planks?