Armstrong cleared of doping accusations

[habernac]

http://www.tsn.ca/oln/news_story.asp?id=167446


Dutch investigators cleared Lance Armstrong of doping in the 1999 Tour de France on Wednesday, and blamed anti-doping authorities for misconduct in dealing with the American cyclist.

[Resolute 14]

Again?

[Hakan]

This thread should read that Lance Armstrong is cleared of not doping MORE than anyone else.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by Hakan

This thread should read that Lance Armstrong is cleared of not doping MORE than anyone else.

the French witchhunt will never end.

[troutman]

It is probably naive to think Armstrong wasn't doping, when everyone else on the tour was doing it. How do you go from surviving cancer to dominating a race where everyone is doping? His main rival Ulrich was caught doping (and is still allowed to race!). Didn't Armstrong's assistant say Lance's room was full of syringes?

Pound said he hadn't received the report yet but, based on what he had read in news accounts, was critical of Vrijman's findings.

''It's clearly everything we feared. There was no interest in determining whether the samples Armstrong provided were positive or not,'' he told The Associated Press by telephone from Montreal.

''Whether the samples were positive or not, I don't know how a Dutch lawyer with no expertise came to a conclusion that one of the leading laboratories in the world messed up on the analysis. To say Armstrong is totally exonerated seems strange,'' Pound said.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/sports/natio...nce050418.html

Allegations by former Armstrong assistant Emma O'Reilly, who once reportedly worked as Armstrong's personal assistant, physical therapist and masseuse. The book stated Armstrong asked O'Reilly to dispose of used syringes and lend him makeup to hide the needle marks on his arms.

[habernac]

they've never had any solid proof of any Armstrong wrongdoings. The alleged "tainted" urine that they claim had traces of EPO would have been thrown out of any court because the proper protocol was not followed. There were no A and B samples. The storage was in question, there was a good possibility that they'd been tampered with, etc. Pound is just being himself, sensationalizing it with no solid proof. Remember, "33% of all NHLers are on illegal drugs".

Ulrich's "doping" offense was being caught with ecstasy in his system, he served his suspension for it. His only crime there was not having common sense and partying it up too much in the off season.

[habernac]

Allegations by former Armstrong assistant Emma O'Reilly, who once reportedly worked as Armstrong's personal assistant, physical therapist and masseuse. The book stated Armstrong asked O'Reilly to dispose of used syringes and lend him makeup to hide the needle marks on his arms.

Again, no proof. I could come up with bull**** allegations that anyone had done the same. With no evidence, they're just BS allegations.

[troutman]

How can you know if allegations are BS? The allegations of Armstrong's assistant are more likely to be true IMO than Lance's allegations that he never used performance enhancers. He has a lot more to gain in making false allegations than his assistant.

Ulrich:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/cyc...rich_teams_ap/

Ullrich tested positive for amphetamines on June 12 in an unannounced out-of-competition test while in rehab for a knee injury that had forced him to skip this year's Tour de France. Since the drugs weren't regarded as performance-enhancing, he was slapped with half the maximum suspension by the federation.

Tour de France DOPING ARCHIVES (a quick scan shows how common-place doping is):

http://www.tdfblog.com/doping/

The Spanish arm of Liberty Mutual will stop sponsoring one of Spain's premier cycling squads, after the team's director was arrested in connection with a blood doping probe.

Jan Ullrich was among Fuentes' clients, along with about 200 others

Like Basso, Ullrich denies receiving medical support from Cecchini, but says the doctor has assisted with his training. In any case, Ullrich said on the T-Mobile web site: “I have never worked together with Fuentes.”

Switzerland's own Sascha Urweider has given a sample that tested positive for illegal levels of testosterone.

The team, which has lost Santiago Perez, Tyler Hamilton, and Oscar Camenzind to doping suspensions in the last two years, has suspended Urweider until his B sample comes back.

Spain's Roberto Heras has been banned for two years for EPO.

Fassa Bortolo's Dario Frigo won't be starting Stage 11, after police found erythropoietin (EPO) in his wife's car.

Kelme rider Jesus Manzano says he has revealed doping techniques used by cyclists in a broadcast interview to be aired soon.
Manzano's former teammate Javier Pascual Llorente tested positive for EPO at last year's Tour, and is currently serving an 18-month ban from racing.

"It's like an open bar when it comes to growth hormones, and you get injected with EPO (erythropoietin) almost every day," said the 25-year-old Spaniard in the second part of his interview with AS.

urine test results for Cofidis riders were positive for cocaine, cortisone, and EPO:

Four riders -- Daniel Majewski, Marek Rutkiewicz, Robert Sassone and Philippe Gaumont

"Philippe Gaumont has admitted to doping," his lawyer Olivier Combe said. "He also explained some unfortunate things that are happening in the (cycling) system."

Philippe Gaumont detailed how he and other riders subverted drug controls while racing.

[troutman]

Charges Emma O'Reilly, formerly Armstrong's personal masseuse, makes in the book:

• Armstrong told O'Reilly his hematocrit was 41, nine percent below the permitted maximum, and that he was "going to do what the others do" to enhance it.
• In July 1999, Armstrong asked her for makeup to cover bruises on his arm from injections. The authors maintain that legal injections are generally injected in the buttocks.
• In May 1998, Armstrong asked her to dispose of syringes after the Tour of the Netherlands.
• In May 1999, she ferried 24 pills from Johan Bruyneel, the USPS team director, to Armstrong near his home in Nice.
• She provides details of Armstrong's 1999 positive test for steroids, claiming Armstrong told her he had used a steroid around the time of the Route du Sud that he thought would have cleared his system before the Tour. O'Reilly says doctors backdated a prescription for a legal cream containing the steroid, and organizers allowed it, even though the cream wasn't listed on Armstrong's mandatory medical form.

If Emma is lying, has she been sued for defamation?

http://www.bikingbis.com/blog/_archi.../4/552210.html

The latest has been the suit-countersuit drama in an Austin, Texas, court between Armstrong and his former assistant, Mike Anderson. Those filings late last week brought allegations that Anderson had found a box labelled for steroids in Armstrong's Girona, Spain, apartment -- an allegation that Armstrong categorically denies.

The Armstrong libel suits [LA Confidential] have been dismissed in France, but are still being considered in Great Britain

[habernac]

Ulrich's amphetamines came from Ecstasy. He admitted that. That's why he was givena smaller suspension.

Oreilly's allegations are still only that. They were reported in LA Confidential, correct? And there are outstanding lawsuits against the authors of that book I believe.

I'm not going to come out and say the sport of cycling is clean, because that's clearly not true. I will come out and say that Armstrong still has not been found guilty of any offenses. I'll stick with him until that happens.

[Hakan]

There is absolutely no way Armstrong is clean. Everyone on the tour dopes you don't dominate a race where everyone else is doping without taking rocket fuel yourself. Armstrong has also never denied taking drugs, he has only said that he's never been caught.

Armstrong is seriously one of the most overrated athletes on the planet. There are far better cyclists on the World Cup than Armstrong. Only us North Americans never pay attention to the World Cup we only watch one friggin tour.

[habernac]

And you've got the proof do you Hakan? What's that? No, I didn't think so. Lance is a genetic freak. His arteries are larger than 99% of the populations. His blood moves more quickly to help his muscles work better. His V02 max is off the charts and has been since before he was winning the Tour. They've never seen any higher than his at the Olympic training centre in Colorado. Ever think that might have something to do with his success?

Armstrong trained specifically for the Tour De France. The most prestigious race in cycling. His sponsors weren't interested in the Giro or the Vuelta or the Liege Bastogne Liege. They wanted him to win the race that gives them the most exposure. So that's what he did. I have no doubt that he could win any other race on the calendar. It just wasn't his foucs. The days of Eddie Merckx winning every race on the calendar are gone. The riders are more specialized (and I wish they weren't, I'd love to see them ride all the races).

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Come on Hakan,
the guy has dominated the toughest race in the world for 7 years and you're saying he's over rated and that there are better cyclists?

There probably are guys who are better at different aspects, but as far as all around ability, and durability, I don't think anyone is at the level Lance is, and I think he has proven it 7 times.

As far as the drugs go, I wouldn't be supprised if the guy tests positive some day (thoug with him being in semi-retirement, I doubt it'll happen), but I'm pretty sure he's been the focus of the most stringent drug testing in cycling for the last few years. And as far as the quotes go, I doubt he's said "I haven't been caught", I'm guessing it's more liekly he's said "I've never tested positive" there is a big difference between those two. I'm not supprised athletes say things that way because every top level athlete takes some sort of products that could be considered perfornace enhancing, suppliments, protein, pain killers, whatever. So they can't really say that they've never taken any performance enhancing drugs, but they can certainly say that they've never tested positive for a banned substance.

Yes there are a lot of cheates in the world, and maybe Lance is one of them, but they guy has been dominant for 7 years, and as far as the testing goes, he's been clean that whole time (even in out of competition tests), so give the guy a little respect.

[Hakan]

Lance races one race a year of which he trains almost all year for. Every other rider in the Tour does two other full tours and about 20 other races in the same year. Lance has 3 months in France in train for the tour while the other riders have two weeks. Lance's team is designed to help him win the race. ie. The pay one of the world's best hill climbers to draft lance up the Alps until he blows up. Lance then takes on the last half of the climb relatively fresh as to everyone else. Every other team racing the tour is designed to win the season points standings meaning the teams are balanced and not focused on making one guy win. Which is the ridiculous part of this whole Lance Armstrong myth. Cycling is a team sport but can anyone here name anyone on Lance's team? Didn't think so.

While Lance may be good at winning the tour and there's no question that he's a great cyclist he is not the best ever and probably not even the best right now.

[troutman]

And you've got the proof do you Hakan? What's that? No, I didn't think so.

We have the testimony of two of his personal assistants. This is a form of "proof" and would certainly be admitted in a court of law. This is not hearsay evidence; these people have direct knowledge of what they allege. Could they be lying? Of course, but it seems more likely to me that Lance is the mendacious one. His libel suit in France was thrown out and I'd be interested to see what the reasons were.

Don't get me wrong; I really admire what Lance accomplished vis-a-vis the other dopers, but I just find it hard to believe he wasn't doping, and there is compelling circumstantial evidence that he was.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

What other compelling evidence is there other than two people's word.

You said before that these peoples allegations are more likely to be true than what Lance said, but don't kid yourself, those people had quite a bit of motivation to lie such as money from a lucrative book deal.

Am I 100% sure lance didn't dope? Not entirely, but I don't think he should be treated like he is a cheat untill he is proven to be.

[Hakan]

I never said he was a cheat. I just said he is overrated. Everyone on the tour cheats. I mean just use common sense, those guys are riding at 40+ kilometers an hour for over 100 kms 6 days straight for 3 weeks. There is no way the human body can do that no matter how fit you are.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

well in fact you did say he is a cheat.

"There is absolutely no way Armstrong is clean." (that to me is exactly the same as "Armstrong is a cheater")

You then go on to say that everyone on tour cheats which implies that you think Armstrong is a cheater. For future reference if you want to back up your assertation that you never said something, do not in the next sentence say exactly what you said you didn't say.

As for what is common sense, not too long ago, it was common sense that no one would ever run a 4 minute mile, do you think the first guy to do that was doping?

As athletes get more specialized, and get better training, and nutrition, who knows what they can do. Of course Lance is taking all sorts of suppliments and things like that, but does that mean he is on steroids, or EPO or something else? No. As I've said before, sure there's a chance Lance is a cheater, but if he is, he's done one HELL of a good job covering it up for the last 7 years. Don't kid yourself, he has been the most highly scruitinzed cyclist for the better part of a decade and he's still never tested positive.

I think he's one of the most determined people in the world, and when you're a top level athlete who is soley focused on one goal, who knows what is possible.

[Lurch]

Armstrong is seriously one of the most overrated athletes on the planet. There are far better cyclists on the World Cup than Armstrong. Only us North Americans never pay attention to the World Cup we only watch one friggin tour.

I'm really not sure how closely you follow cycling, but this is complete garbage. Lance won a world championship at 21 or 22, IIRC. He was an excellent Classics rider prior to cancer, after which he began to concentrate on the Tour. He is widely regarded as one of the best time trialers in the world, if not the flat out best. As for this absurdly ludicrous statement:

The pay one of the world's best hill climbers to draft lance up the Alps until he blows up. Lance then takes on the last half of the climb relatively fresh as to everyone else.

This is completely out to lunch. For starters, you do not draft in the mountains - the aerodynamic edge is minimal at climbning speeds. Whatever advantage Lance gains from drafting is absolutely wiped out by the fact that guess who is on Lance's wheel the entire way up - Jan, Ivan, etc. Lance employs climbers for 2 reasons: first to set a killer pace and blow up the field, and second for protection in case he flats or gets teamed up against by two or three rivals on a climb. Drafting to remain fresh is stupid (edit to say it is stupid to suggest Lance somehow drafts any more than any of the other contenders: it is actually the only realistic strategy available for an overall contender) - next time you watch a stage race, check out how often the overall leaders are out front taking a pull. Lance doesn't do it, but neither does any single one of the other contenders. What Lance's team does is whittle the field down and put the race in Lance's hands to beat 1 or 2 guys heads up, rather than leave it to luck with half a dozen guys on the pace.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by Hakan

blah blah blah blah blah. Cycling is a team sport but can anyone here name anyone on Lance's team? Didn't think so.

blah blah blah blah.

George Hincapie? Tom Danielson? Yaroslav Popovych? Paolo Salvodelli? Slava Ekimov? Jose Azevedo? I'm a cycling fan, I know who some of his teammates are.