A though provoking article on our times...

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Or so I predict. I thought this was very interesting anyways, and wasn't that far off a discussion we had last week.

http://www.buzzflash.com/farrell/04/09/far04030.html

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 14 2004, 02:18 PM
Or so I predict. I thought this was very interesting anyways, and wasn't that far off a discussion we had last week.

http://www.buzzflash.com/farrell/04/09/far04030.html

You're being unfair.

It could just as easily be labeled right wing tripe as well.

Both of the extreme elements on either side of the pole sell the same thing, fear and guilt. It could have been written by either side if you ask me.

Cowperson

[Lurch]

Even as an avowed GW hater, going down paths like this does not make sense. I have resigned myself to the fact that he's going to be around 4 more years, but to sensationalize in this manner is to destroy credibility. For fiction to work, you need the reader to 'suspend disbelief'. This is where the far left is missing the boat - it needs to attack Bush on the believable issues he has pooched, not on that there is some vast machine in the background preparing for a dictatorship. Look at the attacks the right has made on Kerry - generally very believable, especially if you are given to doubt the man. Take part of his voting record which is public record, distort what his vote meant, and use it to attack his ability to be an effective president.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Good comments Lurch. Just have to say one thing in regards to that. The elected official may not matter much. If you look at Bush's administration you'll see that a lot of the guys that have his ear and are setting policy have been around for years and worked through three Republican administrations. If the PNAC can groom a candidate to win 2008 (say Jeb Bush or Rudy Guliani) they can still control the Whitehouse in the same fashion they do now. With the appointments the President is allowed to make these guys can slide from administration to administration, have huge impacts, and never have to worry about the 4 year term or the accountability factor to the voters.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 14 2004, 03:08 PM
Good comments Lurch. Just have to say one thing in regards to that. The elected official may not matter much. If you look at Bush's administration you'll see that a lot of the guys that have his ear and are setting policy have been around for years and worked through three Republican administrations. If the PNAC can groom a candidate to win 2008 (say Jeb Bush or Rudy Guliani) they can still control the Whitehouse in the same fashion they do now. With the appointments the President is allowed to make these guys can slide from administration to administration, have huge impacts, and never have to worry about the 4 year term or the accountability factor to the voters.

Aren't you then simply talking of "The Bureacracy?"

You might have a bigger problem with the impact of life long civil servants in Canada than you do in the USA, the difference being the USA has more impact on global affairs.

Its hardly new. Its common in most democracies, the bureacrats in the background who survive from one government to the next.

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Very true Cow, but you must say that Senior Advisors normally come and go from administration to administration. To see some of these guys hang around in these positions makes you wonder.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 14 2004, 03:42 PM
Very true Cow, but you must say that Senior Advisors normally come and go from administration to administration. To see some of these guys hang around in these positions makes you wonder.

To further you point Lanny, its all about money.

Cheney = Money from Oil companies.

If you take Cheney out of the race you would probably have a significantly less amount of money donated to the Republican campaign. As we both know money = power and that buys you votes.

Massive ad Campaigns aren't cheap and I promise that the companies and special interests have a lot of money invested in the GOP in particular.

[jonesy]

Wow, that is pretty tripey. Talk about fear mongering.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by jonesy@Sep 14 2004, 03:57 PM
Wow, that is pretty tripey. Talk about fear mongering.

Fear mongering? Try reading the Patriot Act and how it can work against civil liberties based on someone's word (the government) versus yours. This article ain't that far off in a lot of regards. Yes, it is very draconian in ways, but you have to remember the book in question was written just after the Great War. Its still very interesting to see the same parallels almost 75 years later.

[FlamesAddiction]

Most of the pro-Bush Canadians would never let Paul Martin or the Liberals get away with the kind of stuff Bush and his friends get away with. The kinds of things that make the supposed sponsorship scandal look like nothing.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by jonesy@Sep 14 2004, 03:57 PM
Wow, that is pretty tripey. Talk about fear mongering.

Lol, Quick! Stick your head in the sand! Phew... its gone... you're going to be.... ok.

[RougeUnderoos]

Just to add to the conspiracy... that book (It Can't Happen Here) is not available at the Calgary Public Library. The cheapest version of it on Amazon.com is $125! One of them costs $975! Only Republicans can afford those prices.

Sounds like a hell of a story. I don't agree, Lanny, that Bush and his henchmen will groom the next President. I am quite confident that they are going to mess things up so bad over the next 4 years that they won't have a hope.

[jonesy]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Sep 14 2004, 04:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Sep 14 2004, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jonesy@Sep 14 2004, 03:57 PM
Wow, that is pretty tripey.# Talk about fear mongering.

Lol, Quick! Stick your head in the sand! Phew... its gone... you're going to be.... ok. [/b][/quote]
Your'e right, I am going to be ok!
I believe that there are behind the scenes things going on in any govt. that the average citizen doesn't ever hear. I just don't believe Bush is an evil tyrant.

Lanny, there is probably a fair amount of truth in statements questioning the power of "life long" beurocrats, but most of that is probably fueled by shows like X files which lead you to believe that there is always one more layer of secrecy and no one knows who is really in power. (the guy with the cigarette?)

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by jonesy@Sep 14 2004, 05:48 PM
Lanny, there is probably a fair amount of truth in statements questioning the power of "life long" beurocrats, but most of that is probably fueled by shows like X files which lead you to believe that there is always one more layer of secrecy and no one knows who is really in power. (the guy with the cigarette?)

Boy, if I were a lifelong bureaucrat looking to maintain my shadowy hold on unelected power... that's exactly the type of 'tripe' I'd want the public to believe. That I'm a cartoon-like character who's existence is laughable rather than believeable. Maybe the government sponsored the creation of the X-Files just to throw us off track!

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by jonesy+Sep 14 2004, 05:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jonesy @ Sep 14 2004, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Lol, Quick! Stick your head in the sand! Phew... its gone... you're going to be.... ok.

Your'e right, I am going to be ok!
I believe that there are behind the scenes things going on in any govt. that the average citizen doesn't ever hear. I just don't believe Bush is an evil tyrant.

Lanny, there is probably a fair amount of truth in statements questioning the power of "life long" beurocrats, but most of that is probably fueled by shows like X files which lead you to believe that there is always one more layer of secrecy and no one knows who is really in power. (the guy with the cigarette?) [/b][/quote]
Uh, no, the reason I have fears about that is because of unelected bureaucrats that have been in office for the better part of 10-20 years and have their own well published agenda. There is no conspiracy theory when the people in question proudly publish their doctrine for all to see and then have that foundation of that doctrine come to fruition under a questionable President who is using fear as his primary tool for re-election. If a group says they want to do something, they gain power and do just what they said, how is that a conspiracy? How do Sculley and Mulder get dragged into this discussion?

[jonesy]

The international monetary fund (IMF) and world bank and quite frankly the EU are the ones that scare me with agendas of power.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by jonesy@Sep 14 2004, 06:40 PM
The international monetary fund (IMF) and world bank and quite frankly the EU are the ones that scare me with agendas of power.

What scares you about states getting together for their equal promotion and self interest like the EU? Surely that wouldn't scare someone from the United States.
I mean are you worried about being bullied in trade disputes, or perhaps their combined military and interests closer to oil action that your states covet? Or perhaps you don't like the idea of a bunch of people speaking for you cause Might = Right....hmmmm

[CaptainCrunch]

Personally I'm worried about France

[Flame On]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Sep 14 2004, 08:09 PM
Personally I'm worried about France

Well that's normal

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Flame On+Sep 14 2004, 08:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame On @ Sep 14 2004, 08:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaptainCrunch@Sep 14 2004, 08:09 PM
Personally I'm worried about France

Well that's normal [/b][/quote]
For all of American's foreign Policy blunders, France is winning based on numbers.

They were involved in or caused most of the wars in the 20th century.

The U.S. has nothing on these guys



God I love these Icons