American Gov't Arrests Canadian - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

MaherFan · 03-13-2006, 01:03 PM

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

Quote:

The daughter of a Vietnam War deserter living in B.C. says there is still no word from officials on how her father is doing after his arrest in the U.S. last week.
Jessica Abney said she contacted both American and Canadian authorities about her father Allen Abney, a 56-year old grandfather residing in Kingsgate, B.C. "And they were not of any help to us," she said Monday in an interview with CTV Newsnet.
Frustrated that her father has not been allowed to make phone calls, Abney said she and her mother Adrienne contacted the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Consulate General of Canada seeking any information they could provide about Allen.

Is there no common sense left in the 21st century?

MOD edit for title and article length. DO NOT post the entire article here. Thanks.

Bobblehead · 03-13-2006, 01:10 PM

This thread title is misleading. He wasn't kidnapped, he was arrested while crossing the border into the US.

He knew he was a deserter since it was a "touchy subject". He took a chance, and was caught. He should have requested the pardon when Jimmy Carter made it available.

Cowperson · 03-13-2006, 01:11 PM

Sounds like he was arrested legitimately on an outstanding warrant.

Not being allowed to contact anyone is wrong though.

Cowperson

transplant99 · 03-13-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

They said that he'd been arrested on an outstanding military warrant for deserting the U.S. Marines in 1968," Adrienne told CTV Vancouver on Sunday.

Thats a FAR cry from being "kidnapped".

If a guy has a warrant out for his arrest, the customs agent has no choice but to take him in to custody.

MaherFan · 03-13-2006, 01:18 PM

sorry about the title

WCE · 03-13-2006, 10:02 PM

I have heard a few different variations of this story.

It has been said that the man has in the past gone over the border without any trouble on a number of instances.

My first thought when I heard that was that there could be a very significant politcal message being sent behind his recent arrest...especially when you consider the way that things have been heading.

FlamesAddiction · 03-13-2006, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

This thread title is misleading. He wasn't kidnapped, he was arrested while crossing the border into the US.

He knew he was a deserter since it was a "touchy subject". He took a chance, and was caught. He should have requested the pardon when Jimmy Carter made it available.

I thought the pardon was only offered to draft dodgers, not military deserters.

metallicat · 03-13-2006, 11:42 PM

Poor, poor draft dodger. No sympathy here. He skirted his conscription requirements. I don't want people like that in Canada anyways.

Tower · 03-13-2006, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

Poor, poor draft dodger. No sympathy here. He skirted his conscription requirements. I don't want people like that in Canada anyways.

The Vietnam war was BS! I would have too. WWI/WW2 hell ya sign me up, because they were about freedom of rights for everyone. These recient US wars? Go ###### yourself, I'm not fighting so Shell Oil gets more money. I know the topics brought up go deeper then this but you can't make me fight for something I don't believe in myself.

WCE · 03-14-2006, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tower

The Vietnam war was BS! I would have too. WWI/WW2 hell ya sign me up, because they were about freedom of rights for everyone. These recient US wars? Go ###### yourself, I'm not fighting so Shell Oil gets more money. I know the topics brought up go deeper then this but you can't make me fight for something I don't believe in myself.

Just a note of clarification.

WWI wasn't about a war for the freedom of rights of anyone.

It was a war initiated by arrogant Royalties and the idea of empire, and fought and died for by young men who had no idea of the blood-letting they were walking into.

FlamesAddiction · 03-14-2006, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tower

The Vietnam war was BS! I would have too. WWI/WW2 hell ya sign me up, because they were about freedom of rights for everyone. These recient US wars? Go ###### yourself, I'm not fighting so Shell Oil gets more money. I know the topics brought up go deeper then this but you can't make me fight for something I don't believe in myself.

I agree with you in general, but I see a little bit of a difference in this case.

The guy was not a draft dodger. He was a deserter, which means that he quit on the people depending on him. If he was an objector, then he should have exercised that principle before he allowed himself to be taken into service. Or, he should have stated he was a consciensous objector after joining the military and dealt with it.

As a side note, many battles in WWII were fought over oil. The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour is believed by many historians, to be a result of the U.S. and Britain controlling oil resources in the south Pacific. And one of the big reasons the Germans turned on the Russians was for oil. In fact, some people believe we are actually in WWIII right now, and don't even realize it. With so many wars/armed conflicts going on, and with so many other countries taking sides because of their own national interests, maybe they're right.

Vulcan · 03-14-2006, 12:43 AM

You're really stepping into deep doodoo with that statement about the First World War, WCE, but I agree with you.
From my little knowledge on the subject, British officers were quick to send Canadians or any others into no man's land to satisfy their egos. Any soldiers who refused to go to almost certain death were shot for cowardice. A most lovely war which led to the second.

arsenal · 03-14-2006, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tower

The Vietnam war was BS! I would have too. WWI/WW2 hell ya sign me up, because they were about freedom of rights for everyone. These recient US wars? Go ###### yourself, I'm not fighting so Shell Oil gets more money. I know the topics brought up go deeper then this but you can't make me fight for something I don't believe in myself.

So, put yourself in 1939, some guy named Hitler is taking over countries in Europe. What do you care? How does that affect what you are doing in Canada or the US for that matter? So you are going to sign up for that, but not Vietnam? What's the difference? From your point of view, both are a world away, and have no direct effect on your current surroundings.

Vulcan · 03-14-2006, 12:50 AM

I don't see much difference between draft dodgers or deserters from the Viet Nam war, The guy was 19 at the time and probably didn't realize what he was getting into until almost too late. The people depending on him were war mongers, I don't see any reason to be loyal to jerks. I'd rather be loyal to myself.

Vulcan · 03-14-2006, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenal

So, put yourself in 1939, some guy named Hitler is taking over countries in Europe. What do you care? How does that affect what you are doing in Canada or the US for that matter? So you are going to sign up for that, but not Vietnam? What's the difference? From your point of view, both are a world away, and have no direct effect on your current surroundings.

If you don't see the difference, I'm tired of wasting bandwith on you.

oldschoolcalgary · 03-14-2006, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan

If you don't see the difference, I'm tired of wasting bandwith on you.

totally agree with you. Vietnam and WWII are on the opposite sides of the spectrum. The best quote I ever heard on the Iraq situation (and it applies to Vietnam as well due to the circumstances) was by, robert mcnamara, secretary of defense during Vietnam:

"If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merits of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."

This was in the documentary "the fog of war" where McNamara goes back and reflects upon what happened.

As for the whole "deserter" vs "draft dodger" argument - its a red herring. Yes he volunteered, but are you saying that he could not have had an epiphany later on? That he might have gotten more information about what he was getting into?

People change - there isn't a statute of limitations on following your conscious...

Cowperson · 03-14-2006, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I don't see much difference between draft dodgers or deserters from the Viet Nam war,

Strangely, neither do I . . . . both should be jailed if that's the law in a democracy where leaders face the electorate on a regular basis. We've had Republicans and Democrats in positions to change laws several times since Vietnam and deserters and draft dodgers are still criminals.

Cowperson

MarchHare · 03-14-2006, 10:48 AM

Isn't there some kind of statute of limitations on this kind of thing? How can he still be arrested for a crime he committed 40 years ago where it's very hard to demonstrate he caused any actual harm to anyone (aside from maybe the US military who spent money training him, but that's stretching it).

If you want to see a real instance of the US unjustly prosecuting a Canadian, you ought to look up the case of James Sabzali. While working out of Ontario, Sabzali sold water purification equipment to hospitals in Cuba. He later transferred to the company's headquarters in Philadelphia where he was arrested for "trading with an enemy". I can't possibly imagine how the US claimed jurisdiction on this case, since his alleged "crimes" occurred on Canadian soil doing something that is perfectly legal in this country.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1910284.stm

Vulcan · 03-14-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Strangely, neither do I . . . . both should be jailed if that's the law in a democracy where leaders face the electorate on a regular basis. We've had Republicans and Democrats in positions to change laws several times since Vietnam and deserters and draft dodgers are still criminals.

Cowperson

Ah, so if everybody else jumps off the bridge, you should too. Sounds good but I'm still waiting for you to jump.

Another side to this coin is that this arrest serves as a warning to possible deserters from the Iraq war.
Latest news is that he will probably be released soon.

Cowperson · 03-14-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Ah, so if everybody else jumps off the bridge, you should too. Sounds good but I'm still waiting for you to jump.

As is usually the case with yourself, you missed the point.

I merely observed the obvious, that the law designating Vietnam deserters and draft dodgers as criminals has survived a wide spectrum of political opinion - Democrat and Republican controlled administrations - for 30 years . . . . . and that is a clear indication the majority of the American people, regardless of their opinion of the unpopular Vietnam war, want it that way.

Given this lack of forgiveness in the public mind has survived a solid test of time, one should deduce that the point itself really has nothing to do with the merits of the conflict itself since Vietnam was clearly an unpopular event in American history.

Another side to this coin is that this arrest serves as a warning to possible deserters from the Iraq war.

As it should be with an all volunteer army.

Cowperson