Do NOT practice Christianity in China..

[transplant99]

Chinese police on Wednesday raided a bible school run by an underground Protestant church, detaining 36 people amid a nationwide crackdown on Christians worshipping outside Communist Party control, an overseas support group said.

About 50 officers armed with electric cattle prods and backed by more than 10 police vehicles surrounded the school in the eastern province of Anhui, according to the Texas-based China Aid Association. Those inside, including students, teachers and leaders of the underground church, were taken away in police vans, the group said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20060..._banned_church

[STeeLy]

that isn't very surprising at all! The reason being, the key word: Underground...

I believe that it is ok if it is a registered Church with the government, however, getting approved... thats another story.

[V]

Cattle prods, huh? I guess that's one way to be shepherds of men...

[Buff]

To practice Christianity in China you pretty much have to do it underground. I believe you can get permission from China's government but they will tell you what you are allowed to preach and what you are not allowed to preach. Basically, you're not allowed to preach what you believe in.

[skins]

At least no one was killed right? The church is persecuted all over the world and China is one of those hot spots.
________
CT110

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by skins

At least no one was killed right? The church is persecuted all over the world and China is one of those hot spots.

From the story . . .

Other sects have adopted unorthodox beliefs, and infighting and competition for adherents have sometimes resulted in violence. On Monday, 17 members of the Three Ranks of Servants church went on trial Monday on charges of killing of 20 members of a rival group, Eastern Lightning.

Cowperson

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Buff

To practice Christianity in China you pretty much have to do it underground. I believe you can get permission from China's government but they will tell you what you are allowed to preach and what you are not allowed to preach. Basically, you're not allowed to preach what you believe in.

Maybe they are stopping those from preaching what cant be proven?

[V]

That makes it less wrong somehow??

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

That makes it less wrong somehow??

Wrong only in the minds of those who practise.

[V]

Yeah, I suppose free speech should be limited strictly to items that can be proven using the latest scientific methods.

You want to write a book based on science fiction? Burn it! Arrest the author and anyone who purchases or reads the book!

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

Yeah, I suppose free speech should be limited strictly to items that can be proven using the latest scientific methods.

You want to write a book based on science fiction? Burn it! Arrest the author and anyone who purchases or reads the book!

Hardly the same thing...nice try though. They are teaching one as fiction the other as non...good streeeeeeeeeeeeeetch

[V]

Oh, is that the line that's drawn now? You know, I see a lot of infomercials on TV and they all claim to have the best available way to make money. The best! You want the best juicer? We've got it for you. Absolute fact that there isn't a comparable product on the market.

Plenty of books that make poor claims about anything non-scientific. They claim to know the facts as well. None of which can be proven, of course. Is this any different? I don't see how, other than the fact that one's religion and the other isn't.

There is no law against claiming fiction is fact, nor should there be, as far as I'm concerned. You obviously feel differently, but I'm not sure why.

There are a lot of shysters out there that do everything completely legally. Should they be thrown behind bars for lying? Is that a new law you think should be passed? Lie and you get 5 years. Where would we find our politicians?? Car salesmen? Any ideas??

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Maybe they are stopping those from preaching what cant be proven?

I wouldn't question their right to worship even as I might be questioning what they worship.

The separation of church and state actually applies in this case as well . . . . . its not just an issue of governments being controlled by religious beliefs where the separation issue can apply. It can also be the reverse, governments interfering/preventing religion.

Cowperson

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I wouldn't question their right to worship even as I might be questioning what they worship.

The separation of church and state actually applies in this case as well . . . . . its not just an issue of governments being controlled by religious beliefs where the separation issue can apply. It can also be the reverse, governments interfering/preventing religion.

Cowperson

Perhaps this is the one line we both agree to disagree on....
If theism wasnt involved there would be no chance of intermixing both politics and religion. Unfortunatley we both know thats just not possible, there is a long history of bad mixes. The point is...who are we to condemn what China is doing? Where is it written that anyone MUST allow the worshipping of a Christian God?

Heres a headline from today...

Evangelists get in on foreign policy...

so whats worse...China wanting to stop Christians...or Christians eventually forcing their way into politics.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

Oh, is that the line that's drawn now? You know, I see a lot of infomercials on TV and they all claim to have the best available way to make money. The best! You want the best juicer? We've got it for you. Absolute fact that there isn't a comparable product on the market.

Plenty of books that make poor claims about anything non-scientific. They claim to know the facts as well. None of which can be proven, of course. Is this any different? I don't see how, other than the fact that one's religion and the other isn't.

There is no law against claiming fiction is fact, nor should there be, as far as I'm concerned. You obviously feel differently, but I'm not sure why.

There are a lot of shysters out there that do everything completely legally. Should they be thrown behind bars for lying? Is that a new law you think should be passed? Lie and you get 5 years. Where would we find our politicians?? Car salesmen? Any ideas??

again...you stretch to make your point...what you suggest isnt even on the same planet.
An infomercial has a product...a visible product that is hardly fake. Whether you want to believe its the best or not is your choice...or that of others. Religion "suggests" you believe in a God or the son of God when there is absolutely no physical proof. Then they demand you live by their morals and attempt to bring others into the fold.
Anything that cant be proven as scientific is "unproven". Science doesnt espouse anything different. Whats your point? If someone lies about something that makes them a liar....are you suggesting that Christians are the same?

[transplant99]

Where is it written that anyone MUST allow the worshipping of a Christian God?

Who is saying they MUST?

Maybe they WANT to, in fact im guessing that is exactly the case here...and no poking people with cattle prods do stop them from doing so is not OK. Its someone else making decisions for others that are not anyone elses business.

[V]

Not trying to stretch anything. Your premise is that a person should be imprisoned for presenting fiction as fact. There are plenty of other examples of the same thing that have nothing to do with religion.

Because I really don't think you have a problem with someone presenting fiction as fact. You've got a thing against religions. And that's cool. Just admit as much and move on.

If someone lies about something that makes them a liar....are you suggesting that Christians are the same?

Essentially. Just trying to view things from your side, that's all. Do you agree with prison terms for lying?

they demand you live by their morals and attempt to bring others into the fold

Nobody forces anyone to live by any moral code. It's suggested, but no one's got you at gun point, everyone there is there of their own free will. Laugh at that all you want, but I can guarantee you that I'm not religious just because I feel that I have to be. I don't feel guilted into anything. I'm religious because it makes sense to me. I could care less if that makes sense to you.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Who is saying they MUST?

Maybe they WANT to, in fact im guessing that is exactly the case here...and no poking people with cattle prods do stop them from doing so is not OK. Its someone else making decisions for others that are not anyone elses business.

again you are basing your comments on what you think...

these are probably closer to the facts...

• China has a law against unregistered religions. Im assuming this was created to ensure religion doesnt get its nose muddled in politics.
• They may want to...but how did they learn of it? Did Christians get their people into the country when borders opened? Did they preach the belief to people who knew nothing of it before? What did they preach to these people?
• Of course cattle prods are not the way to handle things. Religion is obviously the business of any country...China has decided that they dont want it playing anything but a minor role in theirs...whether you or I like it or not.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Perhaps this is the one line we both agree to disagree on....
If theism wasnt involved there would be no chance of intermixing both politics and religion. Unfortunatley we both know thats just not possible, there is a long history of bad mixes. The point is...who are we to condemn what China is doing? Where is it written that anyone MUST allow the worshipping of a Christian God?

Organized religion is a fact. Accept it just as Palestinians need to accept Israel as a fact.

As such, freedom to worship whatever you want is guaranteed by the separation of church and state.

If one particular religion gains overt influence over the political process, then freedom to worship as one might see fit is endangered for all.

On the opposite tact, when a government determines which religions are more appropriate than others, with the caveat on hate-mongering or violence of course, then there is also the SAME endangerment of a basic right.

As an agnostic, I don't really care much what people worship - beyond the debate points which we've all enjoyed here - so long as what they are worshipping stays as far away from the political process as possible.

Even saying that, I would also recognize that religious groups have the right to lobby their positions as would any other special interest group . . . . just as I have the right to insist my elected officials ignore that lobbying.

The line is always being tested.

China, though, is clearly over the line just as I might argue that a country that describes itself as "an Islamic Republic" is also over the line.

Both scenarios endanger freedom of thought and right of association.

China has a law against unregistered religions. Im assuming this was created to ensure religion doesnt get its nose muddled in politics.

Yet the law does allow for certain religions approved by the state.

Cowperson

[transplant99]

China has a law against unregistered religions. Im assuming this was created to ensure religion doesnt get its nose muddled in politics

Who the hell are the people in government to decide what individuals choose to believe within their own souls?

It's ludicrous to suggets its for ANY other reason than mass control...much like all other forms of oppression does.