At 1:00 AM on June 22, 1941 3 Full Army groups crossed the border into the Soviet Union enacting one of the largest land invasions in history.
After a fairly congenial diplomatic situation between The Soviet Union and Josef Stalin and the Germans and Adolf Hitler, the peace came to an end. In his goal for racial purity and living space for a greater German Empire, Hitler turned his baleful eyes east and threw the kitchen sink at Stalin.
Thus began what was at once the height of German power and the beginning of its end. Marching past trains headed into Germany carrying Grain, Oil and other products, The German's would cut deep into Russia. Stalin at first looked at the warnings of the German invasion even up to the jumping off point as misinformation retreated to his dasha outside of the Hills of Moscow and Russia was left leaderless.
Convinced not to resign by the Soviet Politburo, Stalin rallied the Soviet people, rallied Western support, and fought back denying the German troops shelter and resources and let the inhospitable Russian Winters and the eventual weight of the Soviet Army destroy the German Military eventually stopping it, especially at the steps of Stalingrad and then drove the shattered Germans back, leading to the end of the Third Reich.
This campaign deeply exposed Hitler's madness, the weak German command structure and the fault lines in Germany's strategy.
What was learned?
Like Napoleon before him Hitler underestimated the weather and the size of Germany.
at the time of the invasion most Soviet civilians hated Stalin. Instead of treating them gently Hitler and the SS brutalized them turning them into enemies who rallied around Stalin.
Hitler and his continued changing of objectives as well as an overly romanticized concept of his military fighting to the death didn't allow the German military to preserve its strength retreat back to Germany and dig in. Instead Hitler snapped the spine of the German Military.
In the end Russia marched into Berlin, and brutalized the German capital, gained strength and power that they didn't previously had and gained the ability to drop an iron curtain over Europe.
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Would there have been an advantage to waiting to attack Russia? More specifically, could they have shored up the Western front and been better able to mobilize to the East? I have always wondered if fighting on both fronts was really what doomed them to failure. That had Hitler been more patient they could have had more success. Or is it the case that they needed to weaken Russia so Japan could be more aggressive against them in Asia?
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Originally Posted by New Era
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Would there have been an advantage to waiting to attack Russia? More specifically, could they have shored up the Western front and been better able to mobilize to the East? I have always wondered if fighting on both fronts was really what doomed them to failure. That had Hitler been more patient they could have had more success. Or is it the case that they needed to weaken Russia so Japan could be more aggressive against them in Asia?
The Soviet's and Japanese empire were not at war at this time so that was not a consideration. The Soviet's didn't actually invade Manchuria until August 1945.
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Uh... Lance Uppercut.
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Would there have been an advantage to waiting to attack Russia? More specifically, could they have shored up the Western front and been better able to mobilize to the East? I have always wondered if fighting on both fronts was really what doomed them to failure. That had Hitler been more patient they could have had more success. Or is it the case that they needed to weaken Russia so Japan could be more aggressive against them in Asia?
In the end after a initial success, Hitler and the German high command started shifting objectives and assets on a whim, that gave the Russians the time to fortify themselves.
This was also the start of the Soviet tactic of kill bags. You allow the enemy into the bag, let them slam into a fortified defense, and then tie the knot of the back end and kill whatever is inside.
This happened at Stalingrad. Kursk etc.
The smart move would have been not to invade Russia ever. Or instead of a three army group with three objectives, just pick one objective and take it. For example the southern Oil fields. You are never going to conquor all of Russia and your going to bleed to do it.
I'm of the mind set that no amount of fortification was going to save Germany forever, the Allies were coming up through the southern front, and American industrialization alone was going to outstrip Germany, especially with the bombing campaigns.
I would expect that the best strategy would have been fortification, and then a negotiated peace with the allies.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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It's worth noting too that at the time, to Hitler, the Western Front was pretty much a done deal. He was the master of Western Europe, they'd seemingly just turned the tide in Africa, the US wasn't in the war yet, and despite being shown otherwise in the Battle of Britain the year before, the Germans still hoped the UK would just bow out of the conflict
One of many bad gambles
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Like Napoleon before him Hitler underestimated the weather and the size of Germany Russia.
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Thanks for posting this thread! WW2 is incredibly interesting, and this military escapade one of the biggest blunders in the history of warfare.
One fascinating story about the invasion was Stalins speech he made to the Soviet Union. He spoke to people plainly and as an equal, in a way people werent used to hearing from Stalin. Things were really really bad for them. Had the Soviets not been able to divert troops from the far east after intelligence showed Japan wasn't really going to invade, that was the beginning of the end.
Christ, I think I remember reading that they moved entire factories out east too? On rail?
EDIT2 My Mom told me some of her families stories. My Baba grew up in Ukraine and in the war, the germans took her and move her to an ammunition factory in Germany somewhere to be a slave laborer (as is tradition for us slavs). She would tell my mom when the germans came they were so happy because the soviets were awful. But the Germans weren't really any better.
Which reminds me of a documentary I watched about the invasion and the time in Ukraine. A nazi general or someone higher up wrote back to command about Ukraine having butter, eggs, wheat, etc etc, and a populace that hated the Soviets. The germans could have had a valuable asset and ally in Ukrainians but, viewed them as subhuman slavs.
God the nazis were pricks.
edit3 added the speech
Last edited by White Out 403; 06-22-2023 at 10:59 AM.
Behind the scenes, British Intelligence were supposedly feeding false intel to the Germans making the Russians seem ripe for the picking and extolling the benefit of seizing the rich oil assets in Russia. At the same time, other intel was designed to sow concern that Russia would eventually grow to become a rival and later a threat, promoting the narrative to German High Command to attack Russia now before they become a greater threat.
The Allies were hoping too to have Germany divert their focus enough to give time for the Americans to fully join the war effort
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Thanks for posting this thread! WW2 is incredibly interesting, and this military escapade one of the biggest blunders in the history of warfare.
One fascinating story about the invasion was Stalins speech he made to the Soviet Union. He spoke to people plainly and as an equal, in a way people werent used to hearing from Stalin. Things were really really bad for them. Had the Soviets not been able to divert troops from the far east after intelligence showed Japan wasn't really going to invade, that was the beginning of the end.
Christ, I think I remember reading that they moved entire factories out east too? On rail?
EDIT2 My Mom told me some of her families stories. My Baba grew up in Ukraine and in the war, the germans took her and move her to an ammunition factory in Germany somewhere to be a slave laborer (as is tradition for us slavs). She would tell my mom when the germans came they were so happy because the soviets were awful. But the Germans weren't really any better.
Which reminds me of a documentary I watched about the invasion and the time in Ukraine. A nazi general or someone higher up wrote back to command about Ukraine having butter, eggs, wheat, etc etc, and a populace that hated the Soviets. The germans could have had a valuable asset and ally in Ukrainians but, viewed them as subhuman slavs.
God the nazis were pricks.
edit3 added the speech
First you befriend them, then you kill them later. One of the oldest maxims when your invading a foreign country. Yes the Ukrainians would have certainly helped the Germans when they invaded. They hated Stalin with a passion, he'd bought them nothing but pain. Instead they enslaved and butchered them, and then the German's died in the snow.
In terms of the factories, they moved a lot of production into the Ural mountains. However the tractor works for the T-34 tanks for example stayed close to the front so they could roll the tanks right basically onto the battlefield.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Would there have been an advantage to waiting to attack Russia? More specifically, could they have shored up the Western front and been better able to mobilize to the East? I have always wondered if fighting on both fronts was really what doomed them to failure. That had Hitler been more patient they could have had more success. Or is it the case that they needed to weaken Russia so Japan could be more aggressive against them in Asia?
My understanding is that the Russian army was in shambles due to purges of officers, so was probably at its lowest point. With time and increasing production of T-34s and other newer gear they would only get stronger.
A different question is what if they had invaded a month earlier? I guess they were busy invading greece and the balkans, but they just about took Moscow before winter stopped them.
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There are so many conflicting views on why Hitler invaded Russia and the timing of it, but ultimately, much like the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbour, it was destined to fail.
France was never supposed to lose as quickly as they did, and as the Battle of Britain ensured that Hitler would never be able to invade the UK and could not have them submit and surrender, his attention turned to the east. Much like Napoleon a century prior, he invaded because he thought he could win.
Russia was supposed to be invaded months earlier, but Italy doing Italy things, had to be saved from themselves in both in Egypt / North Africa and Greece.
Germans were forced to intervened in both North Africa and later Greece prior to the invasion, Greece especially was one that was totally unnecessary and gave Britain a reason to fortify and build bases in Greece.
Those critical months lost were arguably more damaging than the flanking strategy imposed by Hitler later that summer that is so often used as reason for not capturing Moscow as well as winter beating the German army. In reality, the flanking led to the largest encirclement in military history (Battle of Kyiv) and Moscow falling would not have caused the Soviet Union to surrender. Japan could have entered the war, however had zero initiative to do so especially with the goals to secure resources in the pacific, and they had just lost a decisive battle earlier at the Battle of Khalkhin Gol
I would recommend watching some of the Extra history videos on the war for a fun way of learning historical events.
Mussolini's failed Greek campaign infuriated Hitler so much so that Hitler even blamed Mussolini and Italy for the eventual failures of the Russian campaign in 1945 (of course that was folly, as Hitler's many serious mistakes and the campaign itself was unlikely to ever achieve its goal)
While the beginning of Hitler's demise is often credited (at least in large part) to the Soviets destroying the German Army, I only learned of the US using lend/lease to the tune of $180B in today's currency. The USSR had no chance until then.
400,000 trucks and Jeeps
13,000 tanks
14,000 airplanes
I don't know if it's fair to say that they had no chance until Lend-Lease support started coming in. The tide had already started to a turn a bit in 1942, which was before any real quantities of weapons/materials had arrived from the US. But it was absolutely vital to the effectiveness and speed of the Soviet Army and its war effort from 1943-1945. Without that support, it's pretty unlikely that the war would have ended as quickly as it did.
I always felt a bit sad when I stopped writing stuff up, but with the stuff with my Mom and my Dad, I lost all interest in doing things that I liked doing.
Anyways, its all there, there are lots of really good discussions and information in there.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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I don't know if it's fair to say that they had no chance until Lend-Lease support started coming in. The tide had already started to a turn a bit in 1942, which was before any real quantities of weapons/materials had arrived from the US. But it was absolutely vital to the effectiveness and speed of the Soviet Army and its war effort from 1943-1945. Without that support, it's pretty unlikely that the war would have ended as quickly as it did.
The cracks were starting to show by them, but I don't think that it can be argued that Lend-Lease bolstered moral, and gave the Russians some really good capabilities as they broke the German attack and threw it back.
At the same time, the Russians hit their strides with some really key weapons designs.
Obviously the T-34 one of the best tank designs in existance. But people forget about the IS-2 heavy tank, which could slug it out with the heavier German tanks.
The IL-2 Shturmovik which was just a beast and the under rated Mig-3 interceptor which was incredibly fast, but lacked a punch.
Also despite the purge the Russians had the right type of Generals in defending and then counter attacking the Germans.
Georgy Zhukov and Ivan Konev and Vasily Chuikov were the perfect Soviet Generals they ripped out the German armies guts and then relentlessly drove what was left out of Russia. they countered Germany's Blitzkrieg with a throw everything but the kitchen sink version of the Blitzkrieg no matter what the cost in men and machines.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Hitler and his continued changing of objectives as well as an overly romanticized concept of his military fighting to the death didn't allow the German military to preserve its strength retreat back to Germany and dig in. Instead Hitler snapped the spine of the German Military.
Getting sucked into Stalingrad was dumb
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
June 22, 1941 - Operation Barbarossa
