Racism is bad - so is self delusion

[HOZ]

A little more on the Aussie riots...

From my favourite writer of course!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../20/do2002.xml

Take "tolerance", for example. Wave-of-tolerance-wise, Australia for years has looked like New Orleans the day after Katrina hit. The broader Blanchett-Squires culture has been tolerant to a fault. In Sydney in 2002, the leader of a group of Lebanese-Australian Muslim gang-rapists was sentenced to 55 years (halved on appeal).
The lads liked to tell the lucky lady that she was about to be "****ed Leb-style" and that she deserved it because she was an "Australian pig". It was the sentence that was "controversial". As Monroe Reimers wrote to the Sydney Morning Herald: "As terrible as the crime was, we must not confuse justice with revenge. Where has this hatred come from? How have we contributed to it? Perhaps it's time to take a good hard look at the racism by exclusion practised with such a vengeance by our community and cultural institutions."
After 9/11, a friend in London said to me she couldn't stand all the America-needs-to-ask-itself-what-it-did-to-provoke-this-anger stuff because she used to work at a rape crisis centre and she'd heard this blame-the-victim routine far too often: the Great Satan, like the dolly bird in the low-cut top and mini-skirt, was asking for it. Even so, it's still a surprise to hear the multiculti apologists apply the argument to actual rape victims.

[Cheese]

This is Racism...

[Cowperson]

"Osama Bin Laden Doesn't Surf"

A deeper look at the issues.

Young Arab Australians say that white Australians don't give them a chance, especially in the age of the war on terrorism. In high school, "I had lots of Aussie mates, but these days, you get the feeling they just don't trust you," said Ahmad Kanj, 30, an Australian-born Lebanese X-ray technician. Kanj advises young Muslims at the Islamic Youth Center in the Sydney suburb of Liverpool. "They look at us in the malls, when we're walking down the street. And you know what they're thinking," he said.

"It's unfair to call us racists," said Alice Campbell, 16, who said she was at the Cronulla riots. "I have lots of Middle Eastern friends. But some of them come down here with their women who go into the water fully clothed and then turn around and stare at us and calling us cheap sluts. . . . I say, they need to start understanding our culture if they really want to be Aussies."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10538135/from/RS.4/

Cowperson

[Clarkey]

The cultural mosaic is a stupid ideal. When you move to another country you better learn the native tongue and adopt the local culture. Immigrants anywhere should be immediately emmersed in the melting pot, otherwise you get this grouping together of ethnic minorities which will almost always lead to trouble.

[RougeUnderoos]

In typical Steyn fashion, he is making things up.

Entirely different. The French riots were perpetrated by - what's the word? - "youths". The Australian riots were perpetrated by "white youths". Same age cohort, but adjectivally enhanced.

This is simply not true. Who doesn't know the background of the people rioting in France? Every news report I saw stated plainly that they were Arab or north African "youths" rioting. "The rioters were mostly Arab or black," according to Time Magazine.

Anyhow, I don't really understand the anti-immigration stuff myself. Last time I checked the two most immigration-friendly places in the last, say, 150 years have done pretty well. Better than anywhere else possibly.

And Clarkey, how do you propose immediatly immersing someone into the melting pot? Force them to take English lessons? Force them to wear different clothes? Seriously, how would it work?

The way I see it, if someone can't speak English then that's their problem, not mine. If that person can get through life speaking something other than English or French in Canada then what do I care?

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

In typical Steyn fashion, he is making things up.

Entirely different. The French riots were perpetrated by - what's the word? - "youths". The Australian riots were perpetrated by "white youths". Same age cohort, but adjectivally enhanced.

This is simply not true. Who doesn't know the background of the people rioting in France? Every news report I saw stated plainly that they were Arab or north African "youths" rioting. "The rioters were mostly Arab or black," according to Time Magazine.

Anyhow, I don't really understand the anti-immigration stuff myself. Last time I checked the two most immigration-friendly places in the last, say, 150 years have done pretty well. Better than anywhere else possibly.

And Clarkey, how do you propose immediatly immersing someone into the melting pot? Force them to take English lessons? Force them to wear different clothes? Seriously, how would it work?

The way I see it, if someone can't speak English then that's their problem, not mine. If that person can get through life speaking something other than English or French in Canada then what do I care?

When you want to purchase or sell a product to them.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Jayems

When you want to purchase or sell a product to them.

If I want to purchase something from them and they can't sell it to me then that's their problem again.

If I'm trying to sell something to someone else then the burden is on me to get it done, not them.

Personally I can't understand why anyone would move here and not learn English. Maybe if you bring Granny along or Uncle Vito from the old country I can understand them not doing it, but younger people who actually have their lives and their children's lives ahead of them, they should learn English for their own good. If they don't though, it very rarely has any impact on me.

How does everyone feel about the Feds or the province running free English schools for immigrants? Maybe they do already, I don't know. I have a feeling we'd hear the opinion "why should my goddamn tax dollars go to some guy from Somalia so he can learn English"?

[tjinaz]

Schools have ESL programs (English as a second language) for both adults and children. There is some resistance to it but not alot. What they are pushing for is English only options on all government publications, services and official notifications. No social benefit translations, no social workers, nada. Problem is by doing that you are making it very hard for the staff of those governmental agencies that provide social services. They cannot do their job if they cannot communicate. Same theory: If you want to succeed in this country you have to learn the language. Problem is, especially in the southwest, immigrants can succeed here without learning English it is just harder.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

If I want to purchase something from them and they can't sell it to me then that's their problem again.

If I'm trying to sell something to someone else then the burden is on me to get it done, not them.

Personally I can't understand why anyone would move here and not learn English. Maybe if you bring Granny along or Uncle Vito from the old country I can understand them not doing it, but younger people who actually have their lives and their children's lives ahead of them, they should learn English for their own good. If they don't though, it very rarely has any impact on me.

How does everyone feel about the Feds or the province running free English schools for immigrants? Maybe they do already, I don't know. I have a feeling we'd hear the opinion "why should my goddamn tax dollars go to some guy from Somalia so he can learn English"?

Well, in the real world, when person A is selling a product for x% cheaper than person B, you generally will want person A's business, regardless of a language barrier.

Your not going to cost your business or personal finances more, just because they can't speak english.

So if you want it for cheaper, IT IS your problem.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

The cultural mosaic is a stupid ideal. When you move to another country you better learn the native tongue and adopt the local culture. Immigrants anywhere should be immediately emmersed in the melting pot, otherwise you get this grouping together of ethnic minorities which will almost always lead to trouble.

I think you're making it too black and white.
A cultural mosaic is not a stupid thing when done right. It's actually quite a great thing. Different cultures and traditions should not be abandoned, they should be embraced.
The key is finding a good balance between holding on to valued traditions and adapting to the new world as well.
I agree that immigrants should learn english, and make a strong effort to socialize with people of different races and cultures, but culture is not something you are just thrown in to, it's something you must learn. Sometimes all these people need, is some patience and a majority that is willing to accept them and show them the ropes.
A tone like yours is a big part of the reason why minorites group together in their comfort zones. If they're not gonna feel welcomed or accepted outside of it, why bother?

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Well, in the real world, when person A is selling a product for x% cheaper than person B, you generally will want person A's business, regardless of a language barrier.

Your not going to cost your business or personal finances more, just because they can't speak english.

So if you want it for cheaper, IT IS your problem.

That's the worst defense I have seen you come up with to date.

====

I never understood why people care so much for people to "fit in". What matters is that you contribute to society and have respect for others. Fitting in is overrated, and in some cases, next to impossible.

See, I live in Japan. I speak the language, but know some people who don't, mostly because it isn't necessary for them. Now since I have come to Japan to work, live, pay taxes and raise my daughter, does that mean that I have to stop watching hockey as I live in Japan? After all, it's a fringe sport here - and it's certainly not fitting in. Does it mean that I should not celebrate Christmas like I would back home? Just where do you stop demanding - what exactly is "fitting in"?

Like it or not, Sudanese (for example) people who come to Canada (example again) already have their own culture, they have come to Canada to make a better life for themselves. Isn't the pinnacle of freedom for any country the ability for one to live life and celebrate their customs it in a manner they choose?

If they don't want to learn English, fine - it will limit their chances but they may be fine with the opportunity they are given. If they want to wear a burqa, go ahead. When you start trying to force people to fit in, that's when problems arise - it's much more than a simple simple "he's doesn't speak my language so he's less of a [insert country ethnic definition] than I am".

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Well, in the real world, when person A is selling a product for x% cheaper than person B, you generally will want person A's business, regardless of a language barrier.

Your not going to cost your business or personal finances more, just because they can't speak english.

So if you want it for cheaper, IT IS your problem.

Fair enough. I suppose it would be my problem if a shopkeeper selling something on the cheap was completely unable to communicate with me and I had to go elsewhere. But if the deal was so good that I couldn't walk away and IT WAS going to be a problem that costs me money, I'm sure I could figure something out.

Maybe a system that includes writing down the dollar figure on a sign and constructing a large paper (or styrofoam) arrow to point to the item in question would be helpful?

I've never come across a situation in the real world in which I was unable to buy something because the seller was unable to communicate enough to sell it to me, so this is all just a guess.

Perhaps you could provide some examples of businesses here in Alberta that are run by people that can't speak enough English to sell their product and I'll be sure to steer clear of those.

[Jayems]

hahah, I almost agreed with you until i caught the sarcasm.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The way I see it, if someone can't speak English then that's their problem, not mine. If that person can get through life speaking something other than English or French in Canada then what do I care?

Actually, it is your problem and you should care. I guess you are unaware how big a problem language becomes and how costly it is for government, which you pay for. Interpreters are very expensive and are on call 24/7. Forms have to be printed in multiple languages, which adds to the production and legal costs. Social services are then saddled with having to employ multi-lingual people, which again increases expenses.While this doesn't appear to affect you directly it increases your tax burden substantially.

Personally I can't understand why anyone would move here and not learn English. Maybe if you bring Granny along or Uncle Vito from the old country I can understand them not doing it, but younger people who actually have their lives and their children's lives ahead of them, they should learn English for their own good. If they don't though, it very rarely has any impact on me.

People want to move here because we tolerate issues like this. In their home countries you assimilate or you get out. People come to Canada and America because we will bend over backwards for their "differences" and give them special status that they would never get back home. We have all sorts of programs that make it easier for an immigrant (non-wasp) to get a job than for a person born in the country. This is the land of opportunity for almost anyone looking for a fresh start, unless you were born here. Now that is a pretty sweeping generalization, but it is sadly the way things play out.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

We have all sorts of programs that make it easier for an immigrant (non-wasp) to get a job than for a person born in the country.

I beg to differ. This is an oft-repeated (conservative) misconception. With the possible exceptions of refugees, immigrants cannot receive social benefits of any kind, excepting health care. Before their immigration application is even considered, immigrants have to demonstrate that they can support themselves for at least a year without assistance.

How 'bout listing a handful of these (all sorts of) programs you refer to?

Originally Posted by Lanny

This is the land of opportunity for almost anyone looking for a fresh start, unless you were born here.

Another misconception. Land of opportunity? Definitely. Unless you were born here? What a crock.

Since you obviously can't be bothered to check your facts and instead rely on the tired old standards of how everything is handed to immigrants on a silver platter, I can tell you that Canada is a very difficult country to emigrate to. It took more than a year for MY WIFE to receive her Landed Immigrant status (after our marriage) and another 5 years for her to become a citizen. I believe it now takes more than 2 years to go through the immigration process. And whether you realize it or not, Canada is the land of opportunity for everyone - except the lazy or stupid. I was raised by a single mother supporting 3 kids on a low salary with her only help coming from her parents. I managed to succeed very nicely thank you.

[Lurch]

I was about to write a similar reply for Lanny's garbage, but above is on target. My wife's family is Chinese, and speaks little to no English, especially her grandparents. I've yet to see one "advantage" this provides them, as my wife often has to use her flex holidays days from work to take various family members to appointments and serve as a translator.

Most of the immigrants I've had the pleasure of meeting have gotten ahead despite language difficulties as a result of hard work and a willingness to do jobs most North Americans look down their noses at. Our culture of entitlement will ultimately sink both countries, as people in North America seem to think they should be rich by birthright. Lanny's xenophobic tripe is even more offbase than his usual drivel, and that is quite an accomplishment.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I beg to differ. This is an oft-repeated (conservative) misconception. With the possible exceptions of refugees, immigrants cannot receive social benefits of any kind, excepting health care. Before their immigration application is even considered, immigrants have to demonstrate that they can support themselves for at least a year without assistance.

What part of sweeping generalization did you miss? But since you wanna play, it depends on how you apply. As you aluded to, refugee status gives you immediate access to social services. We found out after the fact that if you have an immigration lawyer do the work for you you can get visas that allow you access to programs immediately. There are a ton of loop holes that work to the advantage of anyone from outside this country. It works the same way in the US btw, so its not just a condemnation of Canada.

How 'bout listing a handful of these (all sorts of) programs you refer to?

The government of Canada has been a very big supporter of programs like employment equity, equal pay and federal contractor programs, and has rewarded companies with huge tax breaks and done co-pay programs to employ immigrants. A great example of this is IBM Canada, who have made a boatload of money off of employment equity and federal contractor programs by hiring new Indian immigrant programmers over naturalized Canadians. I remember they even won an award for their work one year, which got a lot of ****les up in the industry.

Another misconception. Land of opportunity? Definitely. Unless you were born here? What a crock.

Since you obviously can't be bothered to check your facts and instead rely on the tired old standards of how everything is handed to immigrants on a silver platter, I can tell you that Canada is a very difficult country to emigrate to. It took more than a year for MY WIFE to receive her Landed Immigrant status (after our marriage) and another 5 years for her to become a citizen. I believe it now takes more than 2 years to go through the immigration process. And whether you realize it or not, Canada is the land of opportunity for everyone - except the lazy or stupid. I was raised by a single mother supporting 3 kids on a low salary with her only help coming from her parents. I managed to succeed very nicely thank you.

You're right, you're the only one who know's anythng about the process, I know nothing of immigration. My wife immigrated to Canada like yours, and went through the whole process, so I know that side of the line. I immigrated to the United States and know that whole process. I am very we aware of how each government bends over backwards for some, and not for others. My wife completed her immigration during the influx of Hong Kong Chinese, and we saw first hand how the system was inequitable. Those from Hong Kong got processed three times faster than anyone else. This was pathetic as my wife, who had two master degrees, was offered multiple jobs but had to refuse because of the BS the government made her go through. She had the wrong name and the wrong country of origin to be processed expeditiously. Only through the efforts of our MP did the matter get taken care of in a proper fashion. So please don't try and tell me how the system works. I lived it too, and I fought it tooth and nail to force the equity that was lacking in the system.

Getting back on topic, you just proved my point. The liberals in each country will go to no ends to make sure that the "foreigners" get a fair shake. That's why people flock here. They know they are going to get a much better shake here than they would where ever they came from.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Lurch

I was about to write a similar reply for Lanny's garbage, but above is on target. My wife's family is Chinese, and speaks little to no English, especially her grandparents. I've yet to see one "advantage" this provides them, as my wife often has to use her flex holidays days from work to take various family members to appointments and serve as a translator.

That's great Lurch, that your wife is conscientious and takes care of her own. But that doesn't change the fact that many don't or are in a situation where they have no one to take care of them. The solution is one I see every day. They show up looking for help and get it, something they wouldn't get in their home country. It happens in Calgary the same way. They show up at the Hayes building and they are taken care of. Translation services are provided and a case worker looks after their needs. That's the way things are done. That's why people come to our countries over others that don't offer human services to anyone who needs them.

Most of the immigrants I've had the pleasure of meeting have gotten ahead despite language difficulties as a result of hard work and a willingness to do jobs most North Americans look down their noses at. Our culture of entitlement will ultimately sink both countries, as people in North America seem to think they should be rich by birthright. Lanny's xenophobic tripe is even more offbase than his usual drivel, and that is quite an accomplishment.

Hey, thanks for putting words in my mouth. I never said that immigrants don't work hard and don't do stuff that Canadians and Americans (do not lump the Mexicans in with their northern neightbors). All I said was that immigrants have access to things that they would not have access to in their own countries. That is why they are here! How the hell is THAT xenophobic?

How the hell can you guys construe so much negativity out of the fact that we look after people that show up on our door step? We give them access to a system that wouldn't have in their home country. That is a positive for our countries because we CAN do that. It is a positive for the immigrants because they do get looked after better than they would elsewhere.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

How the hell can you guys construe so much negativity out of the fact that we look after people that show up on our door step? We give them access to a system that wouldn't have in their home country. That is a positive for our countries because we CAN do that. It is a positive for the immigrants because they do get looked after better than they would elsewhere.

It seems like you're arguing with your own first post, which was negativity construing all of these things.

Actually, it is your problem and you should care. I guess you are unaware how big a problem language becomes and how costly it is for government, which you pay for.

People come to Canada and America because we will bend over backwards for their "differences" and give them special status that they would never get back home. We have all sorts of programs that make it easier for an immigrant (non-wasp) to get a job than for a person born in the country. This is the land of opportunity for almost anyone looking for a fresh start, unless you were born here.

Quite a change in tone.

[Ozy_Flame]

You want to see what breeds hate and racism? Crap like this that governments think are going to help bring peace to their countires.

This clip is from Iranian TV, but it just goes to show how indoctrinated hate can become.

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2682742