The Mackenzie Valley Highway - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Cowperson · 12-01-2005, 08:41 AM

VANCOUVER, British Columbia (Reuters) -- Political leaders in Canada's far north have revived calls to build a permanent road to the country's Arctic coast to develop the region's huge energy and mineral resources.

Building the Mackenzie Valley Highway would cost about C$700 million ($600 million), but could be partly paid for with tolls or fees on oil and natural gas development, according to a report released this week by the Northwest Territories government.

Favour or opposed?

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS...eut/index.html

Cowperson

CaptainCrunch · 12-01-2005, 09:05 AM

I guess I would be in favor, I mean all this road would be doing is formalizing whats already happening in a far more dangerous way with the current method of ice trucking (see this months Maxim for a great article on the ice drivers, and yes I read the articles in Maxim)

For the most part the mines and refineries and drilling are already in place and operating so there would be minimal impact to the envirmonment.

Lurch · 12-01-2005, 09:14 AM

Does the oil and gas industry really need to be subsidized at the moment? Replace "partly paid" by tolls with PPP development recovered completely via tolls where government provides a market loan at most - better if they simply act to secure right of way where needed. There is no way government should be spending money on this if it can be self-financed by for profit entities - corporate welfare only makes sense for a nascent industry, and even that is questionable.

Cowperson · 12-01-2005, 09:23 AM

Should the Alberta/Federal government twin the highway to Fort McMurray and build a credible railway link to that city?

Cowperson

Cowperson · 12-01-2005, 09:29 AM

I am completely mystified as to why we are getting $400 each, a clear sign they have no idea what to do with their excess, when there is a crappy two lane highway and a falling apart railway to Fort McMurray.

Cowperson

Resolute 14 · 12-01-2005, 10:24 AM

I think you are too savvy to truely be mystified, Cowperson.

Giving 3.3 million Albertans a small check makes Klein popular with 3.3 million Albertans. Building better transit to Fort McMurray doesnt tangibly effect a majority of Albertans.

Cowperson · 12-01-2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

I think you are too savvy to truely be mystified, Cowperson.

Giving 3.3 million Albertans a small check makes Klein popular with 3.3 million Albertans. Building better transit to Fort McMurray doesnt tangibly effect a majority of Albertans.

I'd believe that if the Klein Tories were in any kind of danger of being un-elected. Or even the successor to Klein. Doesn't wash.

It seems strange we're just completing twinning the lonely highway to Grande Prairie, 4.5 hours north of Edmonton, when we still have a crappy highway to Fort McMurray, 4.5 hours north of Edmonton.

I love the Peace Country but, you know, which road butters the bread?

Cowperson

Resolute 14 · 12-01-2005, 10:34 AM

Given I drive to the Peace Country at least ten times a year, and never to Fort Mac, I like the plans just fine.

However, the 43 is being twinned because of Alberta's commitment to the CanAMex Highway system. Ditto the SW leg of Anthony Henday Drive in Edmonton, and the rapid building of interchanges on Deerfoot, and the south extention to Deerfoot.

The 43 leads to Alaska, the 63 dead ends.

As far as not being in danger of losing an election, there is also the "legacy" idea. Klein is retiring, and probably wants to go out on a positive note. Klein wants Albertans to be touchy feely happy. I'dve rather the $400 million that is going to Calgarians going towards expanding the LRT (ie: build the tunnels under 8th Ave or the West/SE legs). Klein probably would have been just as popular, and the benefit would have been greater.

Cowperson · 12-01-2005, 10:41 AM

Ah, the land of Twelve Foot Davis!!! Rafting on the Peace!! I remember it well.

There is no reason this province isn't twinning that road to Fort McMurray. Seriously.

I'm still shaking my head over those $400 cheques and a $400 cheque is hardly a "legacy," certainly not the first thing that people are going to remember about King Ralph.

Cowperson

Lurch · 12-01-2005, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Should the Alberta/Federal government twin the highway to Fort McMurray and build a credible railway link to that city?

Cowperson

This one at least can be justified. 60,000+ people, huge amount of traffic, etc. It would be harder to call this a subsidy to the O&G industry. Although, the short-sightedness of both the government and industry on this is rather stunning-I'm sure that the oil companies could recover the investment on a rail line between Edmonton and Ft Mac in very short order via lower construction costs, but they seem to be in a p*ssing match with the gov't over who should pay.

JD · 12-01-2005, 10:55 AM

Those projects all sound like good ideas, but with the number of major construction projects already on the go in this province, who do you propose is going to do that work?

Once the labour shortage is relieved, maybe then the government can look at more projects. And I would suggest that they do.

habernac · 12-01-2005, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I am completely mystified as to why we are getting $400 each, a clear sign they have no idea what to do with their excess, when there is a crappy two lane highway and a falling apart railway to Fort McMurray.

Cowperson

The raliway is running again? When I moved ten years ago it had been shut down and decommisioned. But it is an absolute joke that the highway hasn't been twinned. lf you've driven that stretch of road as much as I have, you've probably had a close call.

I worked for Greyhound years ago, the northbound and southbound busses tore each other's mirrors off on a narrow section near Mariana Lakes. The shoulders were about a foot and a half wide at the time.

And for all the truck traffic it sees, it's definitely in need of some serious upgrading.

The population has also doubled since I left as well.

troutman · 12-01-2005, 10:57 AM

Wouldn't a road that like that get devestated every winter by frost heaves? It will take them all summer just to patch up the damage from each winter. Any engineers here that know more about this?

Highways of the North:

http://www.themilepost.com/north_hwys.html

Bring_Back_Shantz · 12-01-2005, 11:50 AM

Not necessarily trout.
For a couple reasons.
1) I doubt permafrost heves all that much. I don't know how much permafrost they'd be building on, so who knows about this one.
2) Just because it gets colder longer doesn't necessarily mean that the frost heaves will be worse than say outside calgary. In fact, with all the melting and freezing we get here, it's probably worse. Up there it would just get cold and stay cold, no melting water to refreeze and push cracks open.

I don't know if that is all true, but I don't think it would be such a huge issure. They do have higways in Alaska and Siberia afterall.

kermitology · 12-01-2005, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I am completely mystified as to why we are getting $400 each, a clear sign they have no idea what to do with their excess, when there is a crappy two lane highway and a falling apart railway to Fort McMurray.

Cowperson

I kind of have an answer.. A friend of mine received an e-mail from Ralph Klien that had a survey of what the excess money should be used for. Some of the choices were investment in things like health care, research grants, education etc.. Turns out cheques won..

Resolute 14 · 12-01-2005, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troutman

Wouldn't a road that like that get devestated every winter by frost heaves? It will take them all summer just to patch up the damage from each winter. Any engineers here that know more about this?

Highways of the North:

http://www.themilepost.com/north_hwys.html

It'd be no different than the roads around Manning, High Level and the NWT, I wouldnt think. I've driven up there at all times of the year, and the roads remain in pretty good condition.

Hell, the road maitenence contractor up ther - La Prairie Group, maintains those highways about 50 times better than the idiots that manage the roads and highways in and around Calgary. The exception being around La Crete, where they dont plow the back highway on Sundays because working on Sundays is immoral...

Sidney Crosby's Hat · 12-01-2005, 02:12 PM

I drove from Edmonton to Fort McMurray once during the summer five years ago... I was the only car on the road the entire way up Highway 63 and back. Why does it need to be twinned?

MrMastodonFarm · 12-01-2005, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Ciampa

I drove from Edmonton to Fort McMurray once during the summer five years ago... I was the only car on the road the entire way up Highway 63 and back. Why does it need to be twinned?

First of all I don't know how you managed a 4 and a half hour drive without seeing anyone else the entire way, that's a bit odd.

Second, take a trip up this weekend and tell me how it goes. You'll never drive it again until it's twinned.

shoestring · 12-01-2005, 02:30 PM

Wow you are lucky Marc,were you travelling at 3 in the morning. ?
I travelled that road in 72 ,still gravel then,and after we put a rock through our oilpan we only had to wait about five minutes till somebody picked the four of us up.
They definetly need a new road just to get constuction materials up there to build more roads.
Same as the MacKenzie which if global warming continues could become a cheaper port than the Gulf of Mexico/Panama

Delthefunky · 12-01-2005, 02:39 PM

I worked on a Rig just north of 60 degrees, an hour plane flight from Norman Wells. It was only about 150 km's from Norman Wells, but the ice road was so unbelievably ****ty that it took 22 hours to drive in the best of conditions...

That being said I feel the area should be left completely untouched.