What to do with so many Cs, so few Ws?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Before the game last night, Kelly and Cassie were talking about the impact of putting Lindholm at C

Cassie was of the opinion that these lines make sense

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane
Lucic - Bennett - Dube
Leivo - Ryan - Simon

Her reasoning was that Lindholm makes the top line a better 200 foot line, Backlund and Tkachuk have worked well for years, Bennett is better at C and that line clicked in the playoffs. Lindholm at C pushes Backlund to 3C and he is better than that

Hrudey’s view was that putting Lindholm at C takes pressure off of 13 and 23 and gives them favourable matchups. And he likes the look of Lindholm and Tkachuk together. That was kind of the end of his case, he didn’t discuss the knock on impact on the full group of 12

The counterpoint I would propose to Kelly is that putting them with a minimum wage grinder does little to elevate that line 5 on 5.

I think I’m with Cassie.

The fact is that the Flames have too many Cs and not enough Ws. Slotting Lindholm at C pushes down two guys who are good 200 foot, productive for deployment Cs - Backlund and even arguably Ryan. Backlund to me is a 2 C. Ryan is a good serviceable 3 C, very smart and dependable, but then again he is also on the back 9 of his career.

Slotting Lindholm at C also exposes the dearth of top 6 wingers. Consider the positions these players have played when they were drafted

At C, they have Monahan, Lindholm, Backlund, Ryan, Bennett and Dube (also Nordstrom)

On W they have Gaudreau, Tkachuk and Mangiapane

Then it’s guys like Lucic and Simon.

The challenge is that there are some guys who can play C that are good at W
Lindholm is a top line guy at either position. Dube plays well at W and seems to be on a good trajectory

Then there are guys who play C who do not look as good at W. Backlund and Bennett come to mind

So how is this best managed?

The coach has to roll out the best mix of 12 he can.
The GM should have to evaluate if he has the best assets given positional requirements

Fact is that the Flames 5 on 5 play this season has been nothing to write home about on the whole. Special teams are what has been working.

Tre and Ward seem to think that Cs are more important and valuable assets than Ws. But clearly they have Cs who can’t just be as effective at W.

If they are in fact correct in terms of valuation, the Flames are pretty rich at C.

So my question is what they should do.

Should they manage their asset imbalance with slotting? If so, how do you maximize the group of 12?

Or does Tre need to pick up the phone and see how he can transfer his glut of centres who are playing below their ideal slotting and find some guys who are actual productive wingers?


(I do want to discuss the mix of 12, the strategy of building this roster, and not have this devolve into another thread about Bennett, for the love of god)

[GranteedEV]

I don't want a return to status quo. Status quo is first round outs. The best IMO is to spread out last year's top line:

Tough minutes line:
Tkachuk - Backlund - Lindholm

Both Lindholm and Backlund have chemistry with Tkachuk. Lindy can take draws on the right too.

Middle Six A
Mangiapane - Monahan - Simon/Leivo

Two great forecheckers feeding a sniper in the slot. Gives Monahan an impetus to carry the puck more as well.

Middle Six B
Gaudreau - Bennett - Dube

A good combination of speed, tenacity, skill, and toughness.

Fourth Line
Lucic/Leivo/Simon - Ryan - Phillips

The idea here is to recreate the success of the Mangiapane - Ryan - Hathaway from a couple years ago. Stop anchoring Ryan down with the Lucic-Nordstrom pair.

[Harry Lime]

I'm not sure what more Phillips has to do to show that he deserves a look in the NHL. He even plays the weakest position on the team.

[TheScorpion]

Give Phillips a shot. He plays with a ton of energy.

[pepper24]

Kelly Hrudey strongly disagreed in his best nice guy routine with her assessment. I agree with Hrudey.

Jonny and Mony are playing well and Jonny on point streak. No need to shake up or ruin.

Lindholm and Tkachuk playing well together and best to have Lindhom progress at Center.

Backlund doing well on 3rd line. Dube looked good on return. Would like to see more from newcomers Lievo and Simon.

[Classic_Sniper]

I don’t think the Flames need to change up their centers at all. I’d like to see some different line combinations and maybe more minutes for Backlund so we don’t burn out Lindholm with the current schedule. But overall, the system Ward deploys already lends itself to more defensive responsibilities for their wingers. It’s not unusual to see the wingers rotate to the center ice position.

What the Flames really could use is that game breaking center like a Matthews or a McDavid or a Draisaitl who can tie a game or break it wide open in one shift. I find this team has to work so hard for their goals that it constantly takes them out of their team strategy at times and opens them up to mistakes and easy counters.

Thank goodness for Markstrom who can bail this team out when that happens now. I guess that’s one way of making it up. If you can’t find a dominant centerman, might as well find a dominant goaltender.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Kelly Hrudey strongly disagreed in his best nice guy routine with her assessment. I agree with Hrudey.

Jonny and Mony are playing well and Jonny on point streak. No need to shake up or ruin.

Lindholm and Tkachuk playing well together and best to have Lindhom progress at Center.

Backlund doing well on 3rd line. Dube looked good on return. Would like to see more from newcomers Lievo and Simon.

Hrudey disagreed and again all he mentioned was
- liking Tkachuk and Lindholm
- giving 13 and 23 better matchups

He really wasn’t speaking to optimizing the overall mix in the lineup, and I thought his response really was lacking.

Johnny has 6 PP points out of his 9 total. His point streak is because of the PP, not because 5 on 5 is working particularly well

So I am not sold on the idea that putting Lindholm at C gives 13 and 23 better matchups. That truly depends on who they have on their wing

I am not sure you want to just hang on 5x5 and rely on special teams.

Wouldn’t you like to see a lineup that can take it to the other team and win 5v5?

[Jeff Lebowski]

There is an interview on the fan where Gelinas stated the coaches think Lindholm is the best centre on the team. Furthermore Huska has said when they look at video for who plays the best in the defensive zone (speaking about centres) it's alway video of 28.

The coaching staff, who analyze everything with video, analytics, being around the players all the time (games, practices, dressing room, on the bench etc) came away with this idea: Lindholm is the best centre on the team.

It would be interesting how they rank best wingers (if you include Lindholm as a winger) but ultimately you have to ask how is it best for team to have the best centre on the wing.

I'm not advocating one way or the other I'm just adding this piece of information to this thread. At about 1hr:25min for Gelinas

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/boomer-...g-and-gelinas/

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Kelly Hrudey strongly disagreed in his best nice guy routine with her assessment. I agree with Hrudey.

Jonny and Mony are playing well and Jonny on point streak. No need to shake up or ruin.

Lindholm and Tkachuk playing well together and best to have Lindhom progress at Center.

Backlund doing well on 3rd line. Dube looked good on return. Would like to see more from newcomers Lievo and Simon.

The Monahan line is on pace for 24 goals at even strength over the entire year and the Lindholm line is on pace for 16 goals at even strength over the entire year. The two lines combined are averaging 0.71 Goals Per Game at even strength. Last year the top 2 lines averaged 1.31 Goals Per Game at even strength.

The team overall averages (including 2 empty netters) 1.43 goals per game at even strength. Last year the team averaged 2.24 goals per game at even strength. But I guess we can keep rolling these lines for a little while longer and see if it turns around.

[GioforPM]

I still think Dube is the best option for Monahan’s line. He has offensive chops, defensive awareness, energy, decent corner work and speed.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

There is an interview on the fan where Gelinas stated the coaches think Lindholm is the best centre on the team. Furthermore Huska has said when they look at video for who plays the best in the defensive zone (speaking about centres) it's alway video of 28.

The coaching staff, who analyze everything with video, analytics, being around the players all the time (games, practices, dressing room, on the bench etc) came away with this idea: Lindholm is the best centre on the team.

It would be interesting how they rank best wingers (if you include Lindholm as a winger) but ultimately you have to ask how is it best for team to have the best centre on the wing.

I'm not advocating one way or the other I'm just adding this piece of information to this thread. At about 1hr:25min for Gelinas

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/boomer-...g-and-gelinas/

Thanks, Dude. That was interesting

They definitely are set that they want to use Lindholm at C

It is interesting that he says
-it was time to give Lindholm a chance, think he works with Tkachuk and Dube looks like he has fit in well with them
- they know Backs will work with whomever he plays with
- wrt Monahan, he credits his leadership and willingness to accept a role, and that they like him and Johnny as a pair
-it is just a matter of finding who will work with Johnny and Monny. “Is it Simon? Is it Lievo?” And he credits Treliving for giving them a lot of options

To me this has emerged as a weakness of Treliving. If you are moving Lindholm off their wing, I would think you want to shop for a winger that complements them, not a warm body / minimum wage guy that doesn’t play at the same level

Also he said he thinks they have 4 lines that they can put up against anyone. They really buy in to this idea

There seems to be a lot of ‘hope as a strategy’ in Tre’s work


Also I agree with GioforPM about Dube being a good fit for Monahan and Johnny. I see a good future for him

[SnipeShow]

I think Tre would've shopped for a more high end winger for them such as toffoli but with the cap situation the way it is the warm body approach on some guys with potential to exceed their contract value was a solid move at the time. Higher end league minimum players than you likely find in other years.

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk

[Harry Lime]

One thing that I've noticed this year is a much stronger defensive awareness in Monahan. I think that he looks at Lindholm on the top line, and for the first time (on this team) sees that if he wants to be the #1C, he needs to be more.

[Flames1217]

Ideally speaking we would have another top 6 RWer.

If we were to acquire someone like Richard Rakell we could be down right dangerous.

Tkachuk-Lindholm-Dube
Gaudreau-Monahan-Rakkell
Mangiapane-Backlund-Bennett
Simon-Ryan-Leivo
Lucic, Nordstrom

That offensive lineup is very very dangerous.

Also keep Bennett there and give him Lucic's spot on the PP. The coaching staff may be able to mend the situation if they continuing giving him a solid role. Bennett with third line time + PP2 + PK2 is likely getting 16-18 minutes a night.

[Murph]

Why can’t we just put Bennett with 13 and 23, and let Mangiapane and Dube split time with Tkachuk and Lindholm and call it a day?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Murph

Why can’t we just put Bennett with 13 and 23, and let Mangiapane and Dube split time with Tkachuk and Lindholm and call it a day?

Because Bennett drags down every line he plays on. You don't saddle your two best offensive players with a guy who can't/won't pass the puck and has the defensive awareness of potato. Bennett is a poor fit with Monahan and Gaudreau. That line would be hemmed in their own zone all night and consistently be a minus proposition.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Give Phillips a shot. He plays with a ton of energy.

Agreed. After watching him for so many years in Victoria and seeing how he has played in the Ahl I want to see what he can do!

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Murph

Why can’t we just put Bennett with 13 and 23, and let Mangiapane and Dube split time with Tkachuk and Lindholm and call it a day?

Bennett has played his faire share of time with Monahan and Gaudreau over the years and it just simply hasn’t worked. Their styles clash for whatever reason. That line sort of reminds me of James Neal with 13 and 23, just looks very blah.

It all comes down to Sam Bennett and the way he NEEDS to play. Less Kingston, more grit. The best he’s ever looked was with Lucic and Dube. Why can’t recreate that magic with an even better duo in Backlund and Mangiapane?

[Roof-Daddy]

lol, yeah, that's definitely what comes to mind when I ponder the Flames....the embarrassment of riches they have at center ice.

Don't we all wish that were true.

[DeluxeMoustache]

From post 1

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

(I do want to discuss the mix of 12, the strategy of building this roster, and not have this devolve into another thread about Bennett, for the love of god)