Police Culture

[Ped]

Couldn't find an appropriate thread, merge if you want.


So an incident happened in Niagara the other day, very close to my home, which ended with one police officer shooting another at least 5 times.


https://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/...ring-argument/


The officer who was shot had a history of rage issues and had been disciplined by the Niagara Regional Police several times.


Critics of the lack of information have been coming out.


https://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/...ing-in-pelham/


This is believed to be the first cop-on-cop shooting in Canada. The victim is in stable condition but reportedly had part of his nose shot off.



Now, the Toronto Star had published an article detailing an interview with the victim's brother, chronicling his history of abuse:


https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star...ther-says.html


Not to denigrate police officers as a whole, but I think there are definitely issues in the culture, especially when it comes to discipline


Is it time to take discipline for police officers out of their respective forces hands? Or do you risk not being able to do anything because they will close ranks amongst themselves?

[jayswin]

It sucks that ragers can become cops, but a lot of them apply due to the power the position provides. I have no doubt that here has a been a shift in the last decade to avoid these hires, but it takes a long time for culture to change.

We need more jar_e's!

[flamesforcup]

People who love power are the last people u would want in law enforcement. That is what has caused the police culture of north america to be the worst of any "first world" countries. In European countries police cars are supposed to be bright colored so they are visible. However in Canada and united states they are more darker colored to remain "hidden" and have much more lights on the cars to be more intimidating. We saw how Calgary Police changed from bright colors to a darker more intimidating tone. This might seem laughable to some but it shows the attitude of police here when they want to be more intimidating than visible. And remember the recent corruption that has come out in CPS leadership.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by flamesforcup

People who love power are the last people u would want in law enforcement. That is what has caused the police culture of north america to be the worst of any "first world" countries. In European countries police cars are supposed to be bright colored so they are visible. However in Canada and united states they are more darker colored to remain "hidden" and have much more lights on the cars to be more intimidating. We saw how Calgary Police changed from bright colors to a darker more intimidating tone. This might seem laughable to some but it shows the attitude of police here when they want to be more intimidating than visible. And remember the recent corruption that has come out in CPS leadership.

Just FYI but certain studies have shown that the traditional “black and white” patrol car colours actually stand out more than the plain white cars with decals. Also, in bringing up European police, keep in mind it is common to see them patrolling with sub machine guns on foot in public places. Take the good with the bad, no police service is perfect but for the most part I think Canadian ones do a pretty good job.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Ped

Not to denigrate police officers as a whole, but I think there are definitely issues in the culture, especially when it comes to discipline

All you really need to do is look at the Arkinstall incident and fallout to see how totally ####ty of an organization the CPS is and the majority of police officers in it.

More or less, Arkinstall, a member of the Hells Angels, was pulled over for an illegal uturn. The cop, Derrick, sees he's Hells Angels and takes the opportunity to arrest him without cause. He calls over his buddy Kaminski and they rough the guy up. This happened in 2008.

The cops don't submit a use-of-force report. But they charge him with a uttering threats, assault of a police officer and the like.

Arkinstall trial happens in 2011. Derrick and Kaminski give evidence, contradicted by video evidence, to the point that the judge actually says the cops aren't credible. Which should be a massive huge flag to anyone who cares about any sort of justice of any resemblance. Arkinstall is acquitted.

Arkinstall's lawyer submits a compliant to CPS. CPS review the complaint and (surprise) they find no reason for an investigation. Blue Shield is glowing.

ASIRT gets involved in 2015 with the complaints against police officers but this thing has dragged on for years. And other issues, like obtaining the video, further delay the process.

ASIRT finally recommends that charges be placed against Kaminski and Derrick years after the incident. Perjury and assault charges. By the end they are dismissed in 2018.

In 2018, the LERB does an inquiry into the mess. More or less finds that there was no effort by the CPS to do any type of real review and that, as a result, there's no way to really tell if disciplinary action should have occurred. CPS spokespeople twist the story, instead of cops get off because CPS didn't investigate and gather evidence, they say that cops were innocence because there was no evidence.

A proper investigation may or may not have resulted in disciplinary
proceedings for any police officers, but we conclude without hesitation that CPS’s failure to properly and fully investigate the Arkinstall matter fell far short of what the public has every right to expect in such a case

The video, which was played at the trial on Tuesday, shows Derrick forcefully shoving Arkinstall into the back of the van and then slamming a cage door on his legs two or three times.

In 2007, the Calgary Police Service implemented a use-of-force policy that was in effect at the time, but neither Derrick nor Kaminski submitted a use-of-force report in relation to the traffic stop.

Provincial Court Judge Terry Semenuk rejected the evidence of Derrick and Kaminski, who had testified at the trial. He found the officers were not credible.

Semenuk wrote that Kaminski wavered in his evidence under cross-examination and hadn't take proper notes. The judge also wrote that video taken by bystanders — which was played at Derrick's trial on Tuesday — contradicted the officer's testimony.

The board found that the CPS didn’t conduct careful investigation of serious concerns the court expressed in two officers’ use of excessive force, used a poorly-constructed “administrative review” process that wasn’t founded on sound legislation, and that key steps and decisions were poorly documented or not documented at all.

[

These are the board’s key inquiry findings:
 In early 2011, CPS learned of the court’s finding that two
officers’ testimony was not credible, and expressed concern
that they may have used excessive force.
 CPS did not diligently investigate the court’s serious concerns,
which were clearly stated. Instead, early on, CPS decided
without any apparent evidentiary basis that the only issue was
that the officers had taken poor notes about the incident and
did not prepare for trial.
 CPS used an informal, ill-defined “administrative review”
process that is not legislatively based. The review was not
organized, with no one clearly in charge, and it was poorly
documented.
 Key review steps and decisions were not documented and
others were poorly documented

But a couple bad apples right? Nope while all of this was going on and Kaminski still had charges against him the police union vote him in as president. That's right, a cop who a judge called not credible, who was facing perjury and assault charges, was voted in as president by a large margin.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by flamesforcup

People who love power are the last people u would want in law enforcement. That is what has caused the police culture of north america to be the worst of any "first world" countries. In European countries police cars are supposed to be bright colored so they are visible. However in Canada and united states they are more darker colored to remain "hidden" and have much more lights on the cars to be more intimidating. We saw how Calgary Police changed from bright colors to a darker more intimidating tone. This might seem laughable to some but it shows the attitude of police here when they want to be more intimidating than visible. And remember the recent corruption that has come out in CPS leadership.

On the cars though, the black and white police car is iconic and recognizable as a police car across North America. That's part of the reason Calgary and many police services across Canada made that change, it's not about being dark and scary it's about history.
It's also much much cheaper than decaling up a white car like they used too.

On the matter of discipline though, i think it would benefit everyone if it was handled from an outside source. I understand that as a cop you feel that most people are against you and you need to have each other's backs no matter what, but sadly that results in sometimes cops protecting other cops that they simply shouldn't be

[Oling_Roachinen]

Here's the actual written decision of the incident for the original trial:
https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abpc/do...011abpc23.html

At this point, the situation escalated. Sargent Kaminsky came to the passenger side of the vehicle and demanded that the Accused and Smitna exit the vehicle, or they would be removed by force. Constable Derrick at this time was positioned on the driver’s side of the vehicle. The Accused responded with more profanities, calling Kaminsky a “##########” and telling him to “Suck my dick” and “#### off”. This infuriated Kaminsky and Derrick. Taking their police batons, and using the butt end, Kaminsky struck the passenger side window, and Derrick struck the driver’s side window. They struck the vehicle windows with such force, the audio on the DVD marked Exhibit 2, sounded like two gun shots had been fired. Both the Accused and Smitna cuddled down in the vehicle fearful that the windows would break, and they would be hit by flying glass.


[22] Realizing the gravity of the situation, the Accused told Kaminsky he had enough, and that he was going to exit the vehicle. On opening the door, and raising his arms in submission, Kaminsky grabbed the Accused by the arms and threw him like a rag-doll, face first, on to the hood of the Tahoe. While pulling his arms forcefully behind his back to handcuff him, the Accused complained about a shoulder injury and that he was in pain. Kaminsky responded by striking the Accused forcefully with the baton twice on the back of his neck. This was witnessed by the civilian witness, Amestica, who had just arrived at the scene by taxi, after being phoned by Smitna, to bring the registration and insurance documents for the Tahoe. Amestica, who was standing on the sidewalk 10-15 feet away, shouted at Kaminsky that he should stop hitting his friend, and that he was going to kill him. Kaminsky responded, “#### off and go away or you will go to jail too”.


[23] After being handcuffed, the Accused was turned over to Constable Derrick, who directed him to walk to the back of the police Van at the scene. While walking to the back of the Van, the Accused’s hands handcuffed behind his back, were lifted in the air by Constable Derrick while he was physically being directed where to go. The Accused was not putting up any resistance on the way to the back of the Van.



[24] At the back of the police Van, the doors were opened by Sargent Kaminski. At this time the Accused was taunting Constable Derrick. He called him a “coward” and told him to “take the cuffs off and fight like a man”. He also told him that he would “kick his ass”. The Accused’s hands, handcuffed behind his back, were lifted and he was directed by Derrick bent over and head first into the Van. On entering the Van the Accused was required to take a step up and, being off balance, hesitated momentarily. Constable Derrick then forcefully struck the Accused in the back of the head with his right hand. Derrick then grabbed the Accused by his neck and hands and threw him headfirst on to his stomach into the back of the Van. The Accused was thrown with such force that when he landed his legs lifted into the air almost touching the roof of the Van. In an obvious burst of anger, and before the Accused had a chance to get his legs and feet inside the Van, Derrick forcefully slammed the inside cage door and outside Van doors on his legs and feet.

Again, despite his character, the accused's only crime was an illegal u-turn at the time.

CPS's finest.

[jayswin]

Wow, I had never heard that story. Pretty damning.

[Oling_Roachinen]

There's also a case in the States right now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.5d8ae927ef70

Four St. Louis officers conspired to beat up a protester unprovoked. They were exchanging text messages such as this one before the protest even began:

“It’s gonna be a lot of fun beating the hell out of these s---heads once the sun goes down and nobody can tell us apart!!!!

It was premeditated, they just wanted to get their jollies off beating up defensiveness civilians and it's seen as a badge of honour (pun intended). While comparing Canada to the USA is pretty unfair, it's obvious that the CPS voting in a president that they knew was going around smashing in the back of the neck of cooperating (and innocent) citizens that they aren't much better.

There was just one problem for those St. Louis' officers, and the only reason that anything happened at all, the protester they chose to attack was an undercover cop.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by jayswin

It sucks that ragers can become cops, but a lot of them apply due to the power the position provides. I have no doubt that here has a been a shift in the last decade to avoid these hires, but it takes a long time for culture to change.

We need more jar_e's!

I know of one who graduated with the RCMP this year so the forces have not completely cleaned up their hiring practices.

[blankall]

There are a lot of people underestimating how difficult law enforcement jobs are in this thread. It's a job where your life is constantly in danger and you have to deal with the most difficult and dangerous people in society.

Hiring practices are not entirely to blame here. Having an extremely stressful job is likely to change a lot of otherwise level people into "ragers".

[KTrain]

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by blankall

There are a lot of people underestimating how difficult law enforcement jobs are in this thread. It's a job where your life is constantly in danger and you have to deal with the most difficult and dangerous people in society.

Hiring practices are not entirely to blame here. Having an extremely stressful job is likely to change a lot of otherwise level people into "ragers".

I can understand, won't necessarily validate but can understand, getting carried away in heat of the moment situations where your life is on the line. I'm a huge proponent of self-defense.

Attacking a man handcuffed and compliant though? That's not something a normal person would do under stress. Lying under oath years after the incident? Again, that has nothing to do with stress.

And why should the standards for police officers be "normal people"? The police should be held to an absolutely high standard. If you can't handle the stress to do the work, that's understandable, find a new job. Not slam the door on the legs of handcuffed and harmless (innocent) civilians.

But again, the fact that they thought a thug and goon like Kaminski would make a good representative for the face of the police union shows that they want to be portrayed as thugs and goons.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by blankall

There are a lot of people underestimating how difficult law enforcement jobs are in this thread. It's a job where your life is constantly in danger and you have to deal with the most difficult and dangerous people in society.

Hiring practices are not entirely to blame here. Having an extremely stressful job is likely to change a lot of otherwise level people into "ragers".

Which is understandable but not acceptable, if that make sense. They have some of the highest power in the land, therefore "their job is stressful and changes people, turning them into ragers" is an acceptable reason to leave the profession, NOT an acceptable reason to excuse poor and corrupt behavior from within agencies.

Ridiculous, and I suspect that there's lot of upstanding cops in CPS and other agencies that would quickly shoot down your post and continue to attempt to weed out the bad in pursuit of a strong force that properly and fairly operates in their communities, and offers no excuse for the examples that started this thread and the subsequent posts after.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

But again, the fact that they thought a thug and goon like Kaminski would make a good representative for the face of the police union shows that they want to be portrayed as thugs and goons.

I totally agree Kaminski is a goon but oddly enough I think he's doing a decent if not really good job in some respects as head of police oversight. If pissing off the police union is any metric of his success I think he's doing a great job...


https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...says-cop-union


In this whole issue I'm most annoyed with crown prosecutors. We seem to get recommendations for charges against officers from ASIRT only to have prosecutors go "mmm nah, I don't think we have much of a case really". I'm waiting to see what happens with the 90 pound, 12 year old autistic kid who tripped and crush his skull on his way to the cruiser.

[Weitz]

Not Canada, but Serial podcast season 3 sort of follows the cleaveland justice system and a lot of the stuff on the police is really frightening.

I’ve had a couple interactions with police in the USA (car crash and witness to some bar stupidity) and they were fine. But I could see how things can change on a dime.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I totally agree Kaminski is a goon but oddly enough I think he's doing a decent if not really good job in some respects as head of police oversight. If pissing off the police union is any metric of his success I think he's doing a great job...


https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...says-cop-union

What?

How is he pissing off the police union. He's asking the chair of the police commission, Thiessen, to resign. The police commission is a civilian body, the person he's asking to resign is a lawyer, not a cop. Their role was to investigate complaints and evaluate (and hire) the chief.

Oh, and that police commission chair/lawyer just happened to go public and criticize the Calgary Police Association when it came to the rampant harrassment claims:
https://www.thestar.com/calgary/2018...escalated.html

Thiessen also said the Calgary Police Association (CPA), the union representing the city’s police officers, has a “big role to play” in the cultural change and needs to “step up.”

“My sense is that the police association needs to engage in its own training and bring itself up to speed on gender and diversity issues within the service,” Thiessen said. “Feedback that we’ve heard is that female officers do not necessarily feel comfortable going to their association and having them advocate on their behalf.”

Thiessen is the one pushing for better change and criticizing the CPA for their shortcomings. No wonder they want him to resign.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Thiessen and the rest of the commission deserve credit, as they are volunteers who are paid only an honorarium of $400 per commission meeting attended and $150 for each committee meeting attended. Thiessen donates his honorariums to the Calgary Police Foundation, a charity that helps underprivileged children. It’s a sacrifice and he should be thanked for his service, but should he be re-selected for the post in November, it’s clear tensions are already high with the membership and something needs to give

Wants the police to do better at making female officers comfortable in the workplace AND donates his honourariums to underprivileged children. And you think it's a good thing that Kaminski wants him to resign because he criticized the CPA's rampant harassment? Lol.

You probably were hoping for the Hawks in Mighty Ducks as well.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by flamesforcup

People who love power are the last people u would want in law enforcement. That is what has caused the police culture of north america to be the worst of any "first world" countries. In European countries police cars are supposed to be bright colored so they are visible. However in Canada and united states they are more darker colored to remain "hidden" and have much more lights on the cars to be more intimidating. We saw how Calgary Police changed from bright colors to a darker more intimidating tone. This might seem laughable to some but it shows the attitude of police here when they want to be more intimidating than visible. And remember the recent corruption that has come out in CPS leadership.

*disclaimer... For the following, I think this is a perfectly acceptable amount of information to share, despite the opening sentence. But it’s just about advertisements.

I’ve completed jobs inside police stations, and the ads they have for equipment were ridiculous. Kinda freaked me out to be honest. Blacked out muscle cars, officers posing in black sunglasses, with blacked out gear. Just hanging up in the lunch rooms and such.

I don’t want them to look like dorks, but they’re suppose to be protecting us through a public service, not being a badass.



I will echo that I believe they’re on the right track, at least in Canada. Most police who have dealt with me in various ways have been good decent people. And were great at their jobs. (But I still have 1 story, and I know there are others. Hopefully those police can be weeded out).

Edit: also improvement in mental health will play a factor. Which is trending the right way itself.

[undercoverbrother]

I know some CPS and RCMP.

They are good people.