Afghanistan is out of control

[HOZ]

If there hasn't been any more obvious example of the US's Neocon- Christian - unilateralist- warmongering-crusading - interventionalist-imperialist - pretend democratisation of a country I don't know what is......



TV show aims to be Afghan Oprah

If they are going to talk about women's rights......what other revolutionary thing arethey going to talk about...voting?????? :unsure:

[Agamemnon]

What is this supposed to prove? That the US believes in the power of TV to influence a society? They sure have ample evidence of it's successes, seems like a pretty logical move to me.

Though, for you to take this as some sort of vindication of US foreign policy would be totally wacky. What the hell does an Afghan talk-show have to do with US military domination of most of the world?

'It's ok if they invade us, as long as the tv gets better'. I guess I could agree with that.

[HOZ]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Oct 1 2005, 03:42 PM
What is this supposed to prove? That the US believes in the power of TV to influence a society? They sure have ample evidence of it's successes, seems like a pretty logical move to me.

Though, for you to take this as some sort of vindication of US foreign policy would be totally wacky. What the hell does an Afghan talk-show have to do with US military domination of most of the world?

'It's ok if they invade us, as long as the tv gets better'. I guess I could agree with that.

Ags here would like all women to wear the Burca!!! And shut the hell up!

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by HOZ@Oct 1 2005, 03:46 PM
Ags here would like all women to wear the Burca!!! And shut the hell up!

And I present the Political theories and machinations of CalPuck's own.... HOZ!!! Let's give him a big hand everyone, he comes out and tries his best every game.

[HOZ]

Things just don't dawn on you easily do they?

4 years ago women in Afghanistan couldn't leave their homes without an escort. Now they can have their own TV show and vote. You either hate that fact or hate the fact that it was Bush who changed their situation for the better. That is if you think not wearing a burca and having new freedoms is good.


I think you just argue for the sake of arguing.

[Agamemnon]

What is an 'Afghani Oprah' supposed to dawn on me?

Uh, yeah, the US invaded the shinguard out of Afghanistan and turned the place upside down.

Are you claiming a success story here. Mission Accomplished? Why not wait until the place actually 'works', and isn't the largest producer of heroin in the world before tooting your horn about the accomplishments of American military domination?

I think you just like to support the Conservative US Imperial Agenda. As long as you do, expect to find me arguing with you.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Oct 2 2005, 02:57 PM


I think you just like to support the Conservative US Imperial Agenda. As long as you do, expect to find me arguing with you.

and there you have it. If you present evidence that in any way, no matter how small, shows that something good has happened as a result of something the US has done with it's military Ag is going to argue with you.

Thanks for admitting it finally.

How about saying, "It's great that women's freedoms in Afghanistan are expanding, but there are still a lot of problems in the country".?

Nope, couldn't do that. Has to be all or nothing with this guy, right Ag?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 2 2005, 04:12 PM
and there you have it. If you present evidence that in any way, no matter how small, shows that something good has happened as a result of something the US has done with it's military Ag is going to argue with you.

Thanks for admitting it finally.

How about saying, "It's great that women's freedoms in Afghanistan are expanding, but there are still a lot of problems in the country".?

Nope, couldn't do that. Has to be all or nothing with this guy, right Ag?

Are you suggesting that I don't believe in women having the right to vote? I thought that people voting in Afghanistan was a 'given' good thing, I didn't realize I had to write it down.

For you, Dis, "Women having the right to vote is a good thing".

HOZ claiming, basically, a 'triumph' for the US in Afghanistan is erroneous. For every feel-good story coming out of Afghanistan or Iraq, there are a hundred terrible atrocities. Do you think focusing solely on the positives, and ignoring the negatives, is a good way to examine the situation?

A corner-store opened in Fallujah yesterday, showing the stunning victory capitalism and democracy have achieved in Iraq, thanks to the US.

But is this one positive story proof of success and victory? That is how HOZ presented it.

Nope, couldn't do that. Has to be all or nothing with this guy, right Ag?

I love how saying 'everything is going dandy' gets ignored by you, but when I come out and say 'everything is going badly', I'M the one who is all or nothing. You'll notice HOZ didn't exactly qualify his initial post 'but things are still going badly in many other sectors of Afghani society', but he doesn't have to qualify his statements, only I do. Way to come charging in on 'your side', though I'm sure you'll refute that, being such a down-the-middle guy such as yourself.

It takes two sides to argue... I'm surprised you don't recognize that you're on one. Please.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Extrapolate, extrapolate, extrapolate!

Hoz didn't claim "basically, a 'triumph' for the US in Afghanistan". Those are your words, not his. Yeah, he's over the top in his support and that'd be a good point if you had ever shown objectivity when responding to posts reporting similar stories by other posters. You haven't. You ALWAYS render the story irrelevant in the big picture so that you can go back to your US bashing.

Do you think focusing solely on the positives, and ignoring the negatives, is a good way to examine the situation?

No, I don't. I'm not guilty of that either, by any stretch. Do you think focusing solely on the negatives and ignoring the positives is a good way to examine the situation? You'd be hard pressed to disprove that you do exactly that when considering this saga.

Again, where did Hoz say everyting is going dandy? He, at worst, claimed that Afghanistan has been transformed into a democracy.

BTW...where did I ask you to qualify a statement you made here?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 2 2005, 04:37 PM
Extrapolate, extrapolate, extrapolate!

Hoz didn't claim "basically, a 'triumph' for the US in Afghanistan". Those are your words, not his. Yeah, he's over the top in his support and that'd be a good point if you had ever shown objectivity when responding to posts reporting similar stories by other posters. You haven't. You ALWAYS render the story irrelevant in the big picture so that you can go back to your US bashing.

Do you think focusing solely on the positives, and ignoring the negatives, is a good way to examine the situation?

No, I don't. I'm not guilty of that either, by any stretch. Do you think focusing solely on the negatives and ignoring the positives is a good way to examine the situation? You'd be hard pressed to disprove that you do exactly that when considering this saga.

Again, where did Hoz say everyting is going dandy? He, at worst, claimed that Afghanistan has been transformed into a democracy.

BTW...where did I ask you to qualify a statement you made here?

Fair enough, I presumed that HOZ was using this example as justifying the US invasion of Afghanistan. I also presumed that he believes the US occupation of Afghanistan is, as exemplifed by Afghani Oprah, a success.

If he does not believe these things, and was just pointing out this story without political motivation, purely for the sake of interest, then I apologize. I believed he was posting this story as 'evidence' of the success of his espoused political ideology.

BTW...where did I ask you to qualify a statement you made here?

As far as I'm concerned, right here.

How about saying, "It's great that women's freedoms in Afghanistan are expanding, but there are still a lot of problems in the country".?

Nope, couldn't do that. Has to be all or nothing with this guy, right Ag?

You accuse me of 'all or none' positioning, but HOZ is not guilty of the same thing? Where was HOZ' qualification that Afghanistan still has some rough spots? Why not call him out for the same 'error'?

You ALWAYS render the story irrelevant in the big picture so that you can go back to your US bashing.

As for the US, I love the place. I think this is one of the most surprising attitudes of 'you' Americans. People, everywhere, WANT to LOVE you. I WANT to LOVE you. You make it easy with your entertainment, freedom, liberty, etc. etc. The problem is that US international positioning turns off almost ALL of these people! They want to be on your side, but they also don't want to be on the side of military aggression when it's not necessarily required.

My specialty is international relations. I comment on the US in regards to international relations. If you want to talk movies and TV, I probably like your country more than you do. But, apparently, if I dislike your military conquests, I'm 'US bashing'. Another thing that makes it hard to love you.

Also, when you say 'I always' come in on a certain side, well duh. Have you ever noticed you come down on the opposite side of myself, every single time? But I'm the one who 'always' argues my side, whereas you're a neutral spectator, offering objective viewpoints, right?

Let's be honest Dis. I'm on the Left, you're on the Right. You're too smart to think otherwise, so why talk otherwise? Why not just admit we believe the world should be different things, instead of acting surprised when I come out in favour of my ideology? Come on... we've all got axes to grind, if you're saying you don't, you're a liar. I don't think you're a liar.

[Displaced Flames fan]

I don't disagree or find an argument with everything I hear from the left. That's where I think the difference between us lies, at least with the limited stuff we've seen from each other via this forum.

You seem to me to be someone who will vehemently argue with anything that comes from a source (not talking media here) perceived to lean to the right because it is your duty as someone who comes down on the left side of things.

Maybe I'm misjudging you.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Here's a great innovation

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 2 2005, 06:52 PM
Here's a great innovation

That's a great invention. But how is it related to this thread?
Am I missing something?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@Oct 3 2005, 02:54 AM
That's a great invention. But how is it related to this thread?
Am I missing something?

Nope, I posted it in the wrong threat I think.

Not really that surprising that I would do something like that. :boh:

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 2 2005, 08:39 PM
I don't disagree or find an argument with everything I hear from the left. That's where I think the difference between us lies, at least with the limited stuff we've seen from each other via this forum.

You seem to me to be someone who will vehemently argue with anything that comes from a source (not talking media here) perceived to lean to the right because it is your duty as someone who comes down on the left side of things.

Maybe I'm misjudging you.

Nah, you probably have me nailed just right. I will vehemently argue with anything that comes from a source that I perceive to 'lean to the right'.

Because I 'lean to the left'. Doesn't it make sense that someone who is 'left-leaning' would argue with people who are 'right-leaning'? HOZ likes to claim he's a 'centrist' type, a principle he seems desperate to hold on to. However, on this board, he is a total advocate of the right-wing conservative element. This is not a good or bad thing, it just is. I am an advocate of a left-wing liberal element. This is also not a good or bad thing.

If there is a 'universal truth' to the arguments we're having, like "the US was RIGHT to invade Iraq", or, "the US was WRONG to invade Afghanistan", then we wouldn't need to have these arguments. However, because the 'right' and 'wrongness' of these acts are, basically, judged by the individual that perceive them, then every source is suspect.

HOZ tried to tie Afghani Oprah to success in Afghanistan. As I said earlier, if he was posting the story with no implication on US success or RIGHTness in Afghanistan, it would have been mildly interesting, nothing more. However, if you look at the _extremely_ politically provocative nature of his first point, it seems obvious why I waded in here 'on the other side'.

[HOZ]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Oct 3 2005, 06:36 PM
Nah, you probably have me nailed just right. I will vehemently argue with anything that comes from a source that I perceive to 'lean to the right'.

Because I 'lean to the left'. Doesn't it make sense that someone who is 'left-leaning' would argue with people who are 'right-leaning'? HOZ likes to claim he's a 'centrist' type, a principle he seems desperate to hold on to. However, on this board, he is a total advocate of the right-wing conservative element. This is not a good or bad thing, it just is. I am an advocate of a left-wing liberal element. This is also not a good or bad thing.

If there is a 'universal truth' to the arguments we're having, like "the US was RIGHT to invade Iraq", or, "the US was WRONG to invade Afghanistan", then we wouldn't need to have these arguments. However, because the 'right' and 'wrongness' of these acts are, basically, judged by the individual that perceive them, then every source is suspect.

HOZ tried to tie Afghani Oprah to success in Afghanistan. As I said earlier, if he was posting the story with no implication on US success or RIGHTness in Afghanistan, it would have been mildly interesting, nothing more. However, if you look at the _extremely_ politically provocative nature of his first point, it seems obvious why I waded in here 'on the other side'.

Yes so provocative that you'll argue against the improvement of womens quality of life because of it.


Idiology? Which one was that? It was an example of a fact. Their lives have improved thanks to the Americans.

For every good thing there are 10 atrocities? 100's atrocities? Why not a million? More numbers less attention to reality please.

I am right wing? Nope...you are a Left-wingnut. I just look Right wing from deep left field.


So...a simple straight forward question. Was their lot in life better under the taliban? Yes or no?

[RougeUnderoos]

Ahh yes, good old centrist HOZ.

Pro-Iraq war and occupation, Pro-Afghanistan invasion and occupation, pro the whole war on terror, hates Chomsky, loves Reagan, rails against social spending.

Right in the middle.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Oct 3 2005, 07:16 PM
Ahh yes, good old centrist HOZ.

Pro-Iraq war and occupation, Pro-Afghanistan invasion and occupation, pro the whole war on terror, hates Chomsky, loves Reagan, rails against social spending.

Right in the middle.

^^^^^^^^

No doubt about it, right down the middle, though it's hard for me to see the middle, being so deep in left field and all.

[HOZ]

hates Chomsky


Damn....must be a Nazi!

[Displaced Flames fan]

So, Ag, you're saying that you will argue with anyone who is coming from a right of center viewpoint? There is no common ground or do you ignore it? Maybe you're talking about media sources, but I thought I was pretty clear that I wasn't referring to those types of sources.

If this is so, I feel sorry for you.