Schools plagued by students lacking basic skills

[Cowperson]

The lack of basic writing and math skills among incoming students has become so dire that one Canadian university has resorted to "academic spies " -- two Sherlock Holmes types who pore over stacks of test scores.

Although professors have long lamented the English and math skills of their students, they are increasingly complaining that too many students -- some with top marks -- arrive on campus unprepared for the rigours of academia. These students struggle to string together a sentence, let alone form a paragraph.

"I have seen students present high school English grades in the 90s, who have not passed our simple English test. And I don't know why," said Ann Barrett, managing director of the University of Waterloo's English language proficiency program.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/National/

Cowperson

[habernac]

I've heard that some teachers actually accept papers that have "internet jargon" in them as actual writing. Brutal.

[MarchHare]

This shouldn't be surprising. My sister just started a job as an elementary school teacher. Last night was her first parent-teacher meet & greet event, and this morning she received the below email from the school's vice-principal (who is also a part-time prof and taught my sister during her B.Ed.). If our educators can't even type a simple note like this without it being plagued by spelling and grammatical errors, what hope do our students have?

Lindseuy: I just wanted to tell you how impressed I was with your presentation tonight. I've seen lots, and done lots, of these and I've never seen anyone so organized, confident - WOW. All the little touches, likes the fridge magnet. I know I tell you every day how impressed I am but tonight it really came together. Any student, parent, or other teacher fortunate enough to be working with you is lucky beyond measure!
And remember, you don't have to pay me for any of this!
I also mentioned to Heather how impressive you were tonight.
See you Fri (if I'm still alive) or Monday.

My sister's name is Lindsey, not "Lindseuy", by the way.

[ken0042]

I once heard that one out of every 3 students who graduate high school do so without simple math skills.

Unbelievable; that's almost 50%.

[jonesy]

All I can say is that it feels kind of creepy reading that letter that was meant for someone else. I hope no one posts anything I write to a colleague on the internet.

[jonesy]

Originally posted by ken0042@Sep 22 2005, 03:44 PM
I once heard that one out of every 3 students who graduate high school do so without simple math skills.

Unbelievable; that's almost 50%.

If you meant that last line as a joke, I found it very funny. If not, I find it even funnier.

[calf]

Originally posted by ken0042@Sep 22 2005, 09:44 AM
I once heard that one out of every 3 students who graduate high school do so without simple math skills.

Unbelievable; that's almost 50%.

:biglaff:

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by jonesy@Sep 22 2005, 09:45 AM
All I can say is that it feels kind of creepy reading that letter that was meant for someone else. I hope no one posts anything I write to a colleague on the internet.

I was quite purposeful to keep it anonymous...aside from my sister, the other names were changed or removed.

[ken0042]

Originally posted by jonesy@Sep 22 2005, 09:47 AM
If you meant that last line as a joke, I found it very funny. If not, I find it even funnier.

Yes, it was a joke. I decided not to use an emoticon to add to the humour.

[CaramonLS]

Actually while I was in school the teachers had a system worked out. In the early years (grades 1-6) they would forgive you when you have excessively poor grammar, saying you will learn it later on.

When you get to Junior high, your teachers say you should have learned it in grades 1-6.

This actually happened to me, the teachers just pass the buck through the years.

[arsenal]

That's what you get when parents and educators feel more harm is done to a students development by holding them back, than by letting them through to the next grade.

No one fails anymore. So it doesn't matter if a child has the basic skills needed to move on. If you don't have the basics, then you will have no hope of learning the more advanced stuff.

And trying to explain that to a 6 year old would be near impossible.

[4X4]

This does not surprise me. Not when I read a messageboard full of university educated people, with half of them still confused on the your - you're issue. :P

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by 4X4@Sep 22 2005, 10:06 AM
This does not surprise me. Not when I read a messageboard full of university educated people, with half of them still confused on the your - you're issue. :P

Ha!

When I started a thread a few weeks ago to educate people about the proper use of your/you're and their/they're/there I got piled on. If people want to embarass themselves by incorrectly using something they should have learned by the forth grade, who am I to argue?

[habernac]

forth grade? How about fourth?

[4X4]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Sep 22 2005, 09:10 AM
Ha!

When I started a thread a few weeks ago to educate people about the proper use of your/you're and their/they're/there I got piled on. If people want to embarass themselves by incorrectly using something they should have learned by the forth grade, who am I to argue?

Yeah, there's really no point in telling people they are doing that. I just find it a little amusing.

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by habernac@Sep 22 2005, 10:14 AM
forth grade? How about fourth?

LOL!

That's the problem with trying to correct spelling or grammar; it's an invitation to open yourself up for scrutiny, and nobody is infallible.

Of course I know the correct spelling of fourth, but who doesn't make a typo by missing a letter (or hitting the wrong key) every now and then? I think there's a marked difference between a simple typo and repeated incorrect usage of your/you're or there/their/they're.

[Cube Inmate]

It's pretty clear to me that English grammar is suffering as a result of the internet. Someone who reads books, magazines, and well-edited newspapers can't possibly mix up "you're" and "your" or "there," "their," and "they're." On the internet, however, anything goes. Those who formally publish stories (e.g. Space.com) seem to get lazy when editing stories for the web, and message board users think it just doesn't matter.

We like to think that Canada has a literacy rate near 100%. That's bogus. If you don't know the difference between the above words when writing them, then you're probably incapable of discerning their full meaning when reading them too. That's not literacy.

No, I'm not going to check this message for typos.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Cube Inmate@Sep 22 2005, 11:20 AM

We like to think that Canada has a literacy rate near 100%. That's bogus. If you don't know the difference between the above words when writing them, then you're probably incapable of discerning their full meaning when reading them too. That's not literacy.

Oh come on now, are you serious?

If someone messes up your/you're and their/there on an internet message board they are illiterate?

Have you ever met an actual illiterate person?

[Cheese]

well....jumping in with both feet....since teachers and educators decided it was harmful to below average students to have spelling bees and times table contests...it has become a "do what you can, sweety" world. We dont want to hurt the little darlings feelings now do we?

Now a full generation later I get to see first hand, resumes arrive on my desk from so called graduates of University programs, that contain grammatical errors a child in Grade 4 wouldnt make. This with the added inclusion of "spellcheck" and "mentors" assisting them with their every move. Pathetic.

Now the Math part...for the most part we dont mind...computers do our calcs now so as long as they can input a number they are generally ok...and IF we hire them we simply tell em that they get paid (30k x3) - 80k + 3k and they think the salary is as large as the problem.

The problem has not corrected itself yet, although we are starting to hear/see rumblings in the Elementary school systems now. This means we are going to have these same kids who I am hiring now, teaching kids in all of our school systems, for the next few generations.

Ill gladly take a job as a reader in 10 years....for 40 year olds that havent got a clue how to read Dick and Jane.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Sep 22 2005, 11:45 AM
If someone messes up your/you're and their/there on an internet message board they are illiterate?

Literacy is not a binary thing. There are levels of literacy, based not only on the technical aspects of language (spelling and grammar) but on the ability to comprehend and convey meaning.

From this site:
(The link is screwed by the filters. It should be /f@gan2.htm)

"It is generally accepted these days that reading entails using four cueing systems: pragmatic and world knowledge, semantic (words and word relationships that allow one to make sense out of what is read), syntactic (the sequence and flow of language that enable one to predict, to follow logical thought, to relate information through connectives, etc.) and graphophonic (speech sounds and letter, syllable, and corresponding sound structure of words)"

Are you illiterate if you don't know the difference between "their" and "there," or "to" and "too?" No, but you're not literate enough to keep your resumé from ending up in Cheese's trash can. The grammatical laziness that's so common on the internet is, I believe, contributing to the problem. Frankly, that's something I'll have to live with...but it's not something that our kids should have to live with in their schools.