Where would the Flames D now rank in the NHL?

[mcjmcj]

With GIO and Brodie, the Flames have a solid 1-2 d pair despite early season problems. After that, I am not sure if any of the d-men are top four. Hamilton to date has proveen to be a poor man's Bouwmeester.

Team speed at the back end and on the forwards is also lacking. Too many players that play the same and have the same mediocre skill set.

[hockey.modern]

Hamilton is not a poor man's Bouwmeester.

[Erick Estrada]

Bottom half I would say. There's a reason Brodie and Gio don't get the call for the Olympics or World Cup and that's because they aren't solid enough defensively. They are good offensive defensemen but Team Canada looks for more all around defensemen which is why both will likely never play on the big stage for Team Canada. Hamilton probably is the most gifted but I feel people tend to forget he's only 23 years old and defensemen hit their peaks later than forwards so I'm not overly concerned about him as once a good coach gets a hold of him he will be fine. The rest of the defensemen are all depth talent at best.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Bottom half I would say. There's a reason Brodie and Gio don't get the call for the Olympics or World Cup and that's because they aren't solid enough defensively. They are good offensive defensemen but Team Canada looks for more all around defensemen which is why both will likely never play on the big stage for Team Canada. Hamilton probably is the most gifted but I feel people tend to forget he's only 23 years old and defensemen hit their peaks later than forwards so I'm not overly concerned about him as once a good coach gets a hold of him he will be fine. The rest of the defensemen are all depth talent at best.

Haven't Gio and Brodie's underlying defensive numbers been stellar the last few years?

Zone starts, quality of competition, etc?

I'm pretty sure I've seen that on here.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Bottom half I would say. There's a reason Brodie and Gio don't get the call for the Olympics or World Cup and that's because they aren't solid enough defensively. They are good offensive defensemen but Team Canada looks for more all around defensemen which is why both will likely never play on the big stage for Team Canada. Hamilton probably is the most gifted but I feel people tend to forget he's only 23 years old and defensemen hit their peaks later than forwards so I'm not overly concerned about him as once a good coach gets a hold of him he will be fine. The rest of the defensemen are all depth talent at best.

Brodie is far from an offensive defenceman. He's had a terrible start to the year but lets not start making stuff up. He's on one of the best contracts in the league and IS an all around defenceman and more of a defensive defenceman than what you suggest.

The reason they're not getting the call is because Canada is stacked at the defensive position.

[polak]

Severely over rated unless they get their head out of their ass.

[N-E-B]

These random overreaction threads are getting old. Hamilton not a top 4 defenseman? Yikes.

I'm not going to repeat what I said in the Hamilton thread, but I think it's quite clear we have a great top 3. We lack a true #4 but we have a couple decent #5 guys and good #6 in Engelland.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Name 5 defensive cores you'd rather have over the Flames.

Good luck.

[GranteedEV]

Giordano-Brodie
Jokipakka-Hamilton
Kulak-Engelland

Should rank around third behind

Vlasic-Braun
Martin-Burns
Schlemko-Dillon

Josi-Subban
Ekholm-Ellis
Carle-Weber

though that puts them right in the mix with:

Keith-Hjalmarsson
Kempny-Seabrook
Forsling-Campbell

Muzzin-Doughty
McNabb-Martinez
Forbort-Greene

and IMO better than:

Bouwmeester-Pietrangelo
Edmundson-Parayko
Bortuzzo-Shattenkirk

Hedman-Stralman
Garrison-Sustr
Coburn-Koekkoek

[JiriHrdina]

Bottom half of the league because of the lack of a good #4, and bottom pairing dmen that aren't just below average but simply poor.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

^^^ I would also like to nominate this group for one of the best in the league:

Ekbald-Yandle
Matheson-Demers
Petrovic-Pysyk

Flames are probably around the top 10 mark, but there are definitely other groups that are stronger overall, especially in their own zone. Offensively, the Flames have 3 of the best in the game.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

^^^ I would also like to nominate this group for one of the best in the league:

Ekbald-Yandle
Matheson-Demers
Petrovic-Pysyk

That group is barely top 15.

[calgaryblood]

I think the Flames are definitely a little over rated around the league with a lot of fans from other teams suggesting we have a top 6 that is top 3 in the league.

We are definitely missing at least two good defensive d-men. at the moment we only have Brodie and to a lesser extent Engelland. There isn't any other defender that can really kill penalties and clear traffic in front of our goalies.

We are probably in that 10-15 range because of the lack of depth.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Brodie is far from an offensive defenceman. He's had a terrible start to the year but lets not start making stuff up. He's on one of the best contracts in the league and IS an all around defenceman and more of a defensive defenceman than what you suggest.

The reason they're not getting the call is because Canada is stacked at the defensive position.

So in other words they aren't good enough to make the team. They are good defensemen and at times very good but neither of them are ideal shutdown defensemen and I simply haven't seen this team ever play at a defensive level you see from teams like the Kings or even the Ducks. I don't know how you can look at the Flames defensive record post Brent Sutter and say that it's been good because it hasn't and I don't believe you can say the Flames D core is one of the best when they are always mid pack or worse defensively.

This team has badly needs a Willie Mitchell type shutdown defender since Regehr and having three good offensive defensemen surrounded by below average depth simply isn't a recipe for good team defense.

[PepsiFree]

If people actually look at the defence lineups throughout the league, you'd pretty quickly realise we still have one in the top 10.

Without Wideman or Grossman, our corps line up against any other just fine. Add one of those guys instead of Kulak or Joki, then we look 10-20th.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If people actually look at the defence lineups throughout the league, you'd pretty quickly realise we still have one in the top 10.

Without Wideman or Grossman, our corps line up against any other just fine. Add one of those guys instead of Kulak or Joki, then we look 10-20th.

Who has the best lineup on paper isn't the question though. Look at the numbers and team success. This group puts up great offensive numbers at the expense of the defensive side of the game. I expect that with new coaches the offensive numbers will decrease somewhat as the team focuses on a better team game but until that happens I don't think it's a matter of looking at names on a list and making your decision when less heralded groups on paper play better overall team games.

[Strange Brew]

The proof simply has to come in the form of wins and losses. Forget about this year's rotten start. I believe the current group is average with two very strong players, a young defenseman who is good and can improve and then quite a drop off. That gets me to average.

It's not like the Flames d is able to control flow of a game. At all. They do make some nice plays though.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Who has the best lineup on paper isn't the question though. Look at the numbers and team success. This group puts up great offensive numbers at the expense of the defensive side of the game. I expect that with new coaches the offensive numbers will decrease somewhat as the team focuses on a better team game but until that happens I don't think it's a matter of looking at names on a list and making your decision when lesser heralded groups play better overall team games.

You know that forwards and goalies play a not-insignificant role in "the numbers."

Would you say that Toronto has the worst and Pittsburgh has the best (because team success?) or is St.Louis the best? And the Flames bottom 5?

My opinion? on paper: top 5
Playing like: 30th this season

There's obviously two ways of looking at it, potential performance based on historical data ("names on a list"), vs how they played the last three games.

Your way seems a lot more simplistic and is a horrible sample size, but you're welcome to hold it.

[djsFlames]

I'd put them in the 10-15 range. Obviously before losing Russell and Wideman taking a massive step down they would be higher, but things changed rather quickly in a season and a bit.

Brodie, Gio, Hamilton, Jokipakka are an above average top 4, regardless of how their first few games looked.

Engelland is an adequate bottom pairing guy. Kulak has yet to establish himself.

Wideman and Grossmann are the weak links and push the group down a bit as they are both in their twilights based on their foot speed and Wdeman's decline in productivity, which was his main value to begin with.

Yup, 10-15 in the league for me. After the Hamilton trade I do believe they were in the 4-6 range but I don't think Bob managed his D well, and Wideman's regression, Gio's slow start and Brodie's absence as well as poor goaltending didn't allow the group to play up to the potential it had.

It's still good, so long as Wideman doesn't see significant minutes, and Grossmann is confined to the press box for a large portion of the season.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Bottom half I would say. There's a reason Brodie and Gio don't get the call for the Olympics or World Cup and that's because they aren't solid enough defensively. They are good offensive defensemen but Team Canada looks for more all around defensemen which is why both will likely never play on the big stage for Team Canada. Hamilton probably is the most gifted but I feel people tend to forget he's only 23 years old and defensemen hit their peaks later than forwards so I'm not overly concerned about him as once a good coach gets a hold of him he will be fine. The rest of the defensemen are all depth talent at best.

I get most of your posts are on the pessimistic side but our D group is not bottom half in the league.