Banning/Allowing Religious Garbs

[Looch City]

There's been several developments in Canada and France on this issue so I'd thought we'd discuss it here. (and hopefully not get the thread locked?)

Several beaches and areas in France have recently banned the 'burkini' which is basically a more relaxed fitting wetsuit Muslim women wore on the beaches there.

There's been a lot of back and forth discussions for and against it. By banning it, aren't we still dictating what women can/can't wear? Some people say yes but it's good because we're banning a bad religious practice. Others say it's no different than Saudi Arabia's rules on the hijab.

Burkini ban: Why is France arresting Muslim women for wearing full-body swimwear and why are people so angry?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7207971.html

Burkini

Spoiler!

Wetsuit

Spoiler!

And now I saw this story on CBC today:
RCMP allows Muslim women Mounties to wear hijab
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp...ijab-1.3733829

The Mounties have adopted a new uniform policy to allow female Muslim officers to wear the hijab.

Scott Bardsley, spokesman for Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale, confirmed that RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson recently approved an addition to the uniform policy to allow women officers to wear the head scarf "if they so choose."

"The Royal Canadian Mounted Police is a progressive and inclusive police service that values and respects persons of all cultural and religious backgrounds," Bardsley said in an email.

Male members of the Sikh faith have been able to wear the turban as part of the RCMP uniform since the early 1990s, he noted.

Canada and France seem to be in direct contrast with each other regarding this matter (albeit one is on the job versus on the beach).

Obviously French culture is different and the terrible tragedies that have occurred there has to be taken into account. But are they still in the right on this case?

[Igottago]

How can you advocate freedom and not let people wear what they want? The French are way off base on this one. Reeks of "secularism" turning into its own form of extremism. I wonder if they would take action against a nun at the beach. Somehow I doubt it.

[polak]

The French are in the wrong but they have been pushed to the absolute limit if you ask me. Easy to sit here on a pedestal and judge them when your country hasn't had 4 deadly attacks in the last 12 months.... What is it, 200+ dead?

[Dan02]

Kind of a slippery slope if we start banning certainm religious clothing what's next?? banning socks and sandals? Fanny packs?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by polak

The French are in the wrong but they have been pushed to the absolute limit if you ask me. Easy to sit here on a pedestal and judge them when your country hasn't been attacked 4 times in the last 12 months....

These women didn't attack them. This action will do nothing but fuel more anti-muslim sentiment and also fuel more possible attacks to counter it. Totally counterproductive. Its a cowardly policy meant to bully people who dare to identify with their background.

What these women wear on the beach has nothing to do with security issues.

[sixpacked]

Damn man. She is showing a lot of ankle in that first Spoiler. Should be NSFW!!

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by polak

The French are in the wrong but they have been pushed to the absolute limit if you ask me. Easy to sit here on a pedestal and judge them when your country hasn't had 4 deadly attacks in the last 12 months....

By women in burkinis?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Dan02

Kind of a slippery slope if we start banning certainm religious clothing what's next?? banning socks and sandals? Fanny packs?

Bras?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Ok so what happens if regular joe or jane (ie white) shows up to the beach in full body coverings because they are super conservative puritans or something? I'm guessing it is ok since they aren't brown?

[polak]

Originally Posted by Igottago

These women didn't attack them. This action will do nothing but fuel more anti-muslim sentiment and also fuel more possible attacks to counter it. Totally counterproductive. Its a cowardly policy meant to bully people who dare to identify with their background.

What these women wear on the beach has nothing to do with security issues.

Like I said, the French government is in the wrong. You're completely right. I'm just not going to sit here and judge them for these emotions coming to the forefront.

It's really easy for you to do so when you don't have to live in constant fear of a possible attack. Try going there and check out the police presence. See how super you feel when there's armed military patrolling the streets, the malls and the train stations.

Yes this stupid ban won't do anything to help solve that fear but I'm not surprised that it's starting to rear its ugly head.

Before people put words in my mouth, I'm basically saying "Yeah it's stupid ban, I'm not surprised it's happening though".

[Sliver]

I saw a woman at Lake Bonavista on the weekend in the Muslim outfit with just her face poking out (not the full on beekeeper suit). All the kids and men in the family were playing in the water and she was sitting there all sullen at the picnic table. I wanted to buy her a burkini so she could enjoy the water like everybody else yet still be wearing what makes her comfortable. Banning the burkini is a total a-hole move.

I also like that you can wear a turban in the RCMP and I remember when that was a big controversy in the 90s.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by polak

Like I said, the French government is in the wrong. You're completely right. I'm just not going to sit here and judge them for these emotions coming to the forefront.

It's really easy for you to do so when you don't have to live in constant fear of a possible attack. Try going there and check out the police presence. See how super you feel when there's armed military patrolling the streets, the malls and the train stations.

Yes this stupid ban won't do anything to help solve that fear but I'm not surprised that it's starting to rear its ugly head.

Before people put words in my mouth, I'm basically saying "Yeah it's stupid ban, I'm not surprised it's happening though".

The constant fear thing is so untrue when looked at analytically.

Should be people of France be more worried about dying in a car accident or terrorism. Irrational fear needs to be dealt with.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by polak

The French are in the wrong but they have been pushed to the absolute limit if you ask me. Easy to sit here on a pedestal and judge them when your country hasn't had 4 deadly attacks in the last 12 months.... What is it, 200+ dead?

And the law helps how?

[activeStick]

There's no practical reason to ban them from wearing something that is required by their religion on a beach though. I can't even think of one that would make any sense. All this law does is create more division and more anger that their religious beliefs are not acceptable in France.

It's a decision made based purely on emotion.

[Huntingwhale]

I don't care what people want to wear. The only reason I would care for them to remove it is if it's for identity purposes (photo ID) or respect for a certain venue/event (like taking your hat off at church if asked). Kind of hard to promote freedom of expression when you are forced to dress a certain way.

I think people automatically associated burqas with terrorism or oppression towards women. Like Igottago said, I don't see anyone getting all up in arms if a nun wears her outfit at the lake. But as soon as a muslim woman wears her burqa at a beach, even if it's 100% her own choice, its automatically assumed she's being forced to by her terrorist husband.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by polak

Like I said, the French government is in the wrong. You're completely right. I'm just not going to sit here and judge them for these emotions coming to the forefront.

It's really easy for you to do so when you don't have to live in constant fear of a possible attack. Try going there and check out the police presence. See how super you feel when there's armed military patrolling the streets, the malls and the train stations.

Yes this stupid ban won't do anything to help solve that fear but I'm not surprised that it's starting to rear its ugly head.

Before people put words in my mouth, I'm basically saying "Yeah it's stupid ban, I'm not surprised it's happening though".

So what's your point? That we shouldn't be surprised?

[peter12]

The burkini is obviously a repulsive artifact of oppressive, misogynist culture, but a ban that enables police to force women to take their clothes off in public is a real disgusting piece of authoritarianism.

[polak]

Originally Posted by GGG

The constant fear thing is so untrue when looked at analytically.

Should be people of France be more worried about dying in a car accident or terrorism. Irrational fear needs to be dealt with.

Hows the view from your ivory tower?

Super easy for you to say that. 3 months leading up to the Euro cup they were constantly inundated with talk of an imminent attack, then there was an attack in neighbouring Belgium, then days before the tournament the Ukrainian police foil someone trying to smuggle a mini-armory out of the Ukraine with the intent of bringing it to France, During the tournament every city is on high alert with police in riot gear and armor lining busy districts, then a couple weeks after the tournament ends there's another major attack in Nice, followed by a priest getting his throat slit by islamist terrorists a few weeks later. The French have been in a state of emergency since November, there are pamphlets posted in gas stations, train stations, bulletin boards and on street signs on what to do in case of an attack for crying out loud.

It's been almost a year straight of terrorism dominating their psyche. Hundreds of people have died. But yeah you're sitting their safe and sound never having been near a terror event or probably even knowing anyone who has, living in a country whose worst terror attack was 40 years ago, telling them to "Get over their irrational fear".

People are freaked out and angry. This is what's going to happen. Tensions are rising.

[calgaryblood]

Polak doesn't agree with the ban but will write several paragraphs on why it's ok for them to feel angry.

Your true colours are showing.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

The burkini is obviously a repulsive artifact of oppressive, misogynist culture, but a ban that enables police to force women to take their clothes off in public is a real disgusting piece of authoritarianism.

Agreed. I also don't know how they're expecting this play out. It's not going to suddenly make Muslim women start wearing less clothing to the beach, or make Muslim men any less misogynistic. All it's going to do is force these women to stay inside and further alienate them from French society.