Asbestos and vinyl sheet flooring? Kind of urgent advice needed! - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Buzzard · 05-04-2015, 08:17 PM

I'm in a bind. I'm in the middle of a complete kitchen reno. The house was built in 1981. Right now it's completely gutted, all that's left to do is lift up the ugly old vinyl and the particle board subfloor it's on in order to put new subfloor and tile down.

So I'm talking to the neighbor, telling him what's going on and he says better wear a mask for pulling up that lino because of asbestos. I knew nothing of this! I panic, start googling, and find that this is a fairly serious thing.

Now there's varying opinions it seems on how serious a thing it is. Everything from "one tiny exposure leads directly to disease", to "hell, I worked around that stuff for 30 years and I'm fine". Apparently asbestos in flooring phased out in the late 70's, early 80's but flooring with asbestos was used right up to the 90's. The only way to find out is to have it tested, and asume if your home is in that age that it DOES have asbestos in it. I would have no problem getting it tested....but I need this flooring up tomorrow for subfloor to go in Wednesday and kichen in Thursday Friday. I've no clue what to do here. Roll the dice, try to keep dust and whatnot to minimum?? Anybody have experience or advice??

OMG!WTF! · 05-04-2015, 08:52 PM

What kind of flooring are you going to use? A lot of people add a 5/8 plywood subfloor right over top of the existing lino. If that works with your flooing and height issues it might be ok. Not the greatest subfloor for tile but ok. If you're not willing to chance the asbestos (and why would you) it's a good choice. One thing that may work if you are tiling is to install Ditra as a subfloor over top of the lino. There are mortars that will work but you must us the right products. You can also skim coat the lino with planipatch, then install Ditra for tile. It lowers your subloor height by up to 3/8 of an inch. I'd phone and ask Northland Construction in the am.

Buzzard · 05-04-2015, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

What kind of flooring are you going to use? A lot of people add a 5/8 plywood subfloor right over top of the existing lino. If that works with your flooing and height issues it might be ok. Not the greatest subfloor for tile but ok. If you're not willing to chance the asbestos (and why would you) it's a good choice. One thing that may work if you are tiling is to install Ditra as a subfloor over top of the lino. There are mortars that will work but you must us the right products. You can also skim coat the lino with planipatch, then install Ditra for tile. It lowers your subloor height by up to 3/8 of an inch. I'd phone and ask Northland Construction in the am.

Yeah, the problem is I need to put down 3/8 plywood to match some previously installed tile in the bathroom...YES, I did rip up that lino and subfloor, unknowing of the hazards.

I'm actually mellowing out here a bit now, as I'm reading something that is somewhat countering the asbestos fear. I think if I'm careful, use water to keep dust down, I should be ok...i really don't know what else I can do. I can actually keep the lino bashing to a minimum anyway. I'm just gonna cut it with exacto along the edges of board underneath. Then pry up board with lino on top. I think that'll work without too much disturbance.

Here's the article I mentioned. It's quite interesting if anyone else is interested.

http://fumento.com/asbestos/asbest.html

#-3 · 05-04-2015, 09:05 PM

This is all hearsay, but the asbestos lino shouldn't be that bad. doesn't really create much dust compared to tile or ceiling insulation.

I would still recommend a mask, but that stuff was in everything in the 70s and people from that era are generally healthy then that generation before. So limited low risk exposure isn't likely to cause any big problems.

kevman · 05-04-2015, 09:14 PM

You can have 24hr testing done but that still won't help your "I need to pull up the floor tomorrow" problem. I used http://www.ehspartnerships.com/ when I had my vinyl floor tested. For what it's worth my two layers of vinyl sheet/tile came out clean.

My plaster walls however came back positive. After researching I determined the fear was overblown and that if I was careful I could take it down myself (two walls ~10 ln. ft.). I bought an asbestos rated dust mask and wore full coveralls that I threw away when I was done. I also replaced the filters on my dust mask when I was done. I bagged all of the plaster as I took it down and cleaned up the mess with a shop vac that had a bag and a hepa style filter. I had also taped off the room for the reno to keep the dust in the work space. Finally I made sure my furnace was off so it didn't kick on and circulate air until I was done. I didn't have a means of negative air pressure so I skipped that step.

Tiling over an existing floor may be common practice but it's pretty sloppy in my opinion and you're left with an ugly threshold.

When it came to removing my vinyl tile (without asbestos) the subfloor wasn't glued down so it was actually a really clean and easy job. I bought a 36" crowbar and was able to pry up the sub floor and take the tile with it. It probably took an hour to rip the floor up and another hour to carry it out to the dumpster. If yours is that easy too and your tests do come back positive you at least won't be exposed for that long.

Buzzard · 05-04-2015, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevman

You can have 24hr testing done but that still won't help your "I need to pull up the floor tomorrow" problem. I used http://www.ehspartnerships.com/ when I had my vinyl floor tested. For what it's worth my two layers of vinyl sheet/tile came out clean.

My plaster walls however came back positive. After researching I determined the fear was overblown and that if I was careful I could take it down myself (two walls ~10 ln. ft.). I bought an asbestos rated dust mask and wore full coveralls that I threw away when I was done. I also replaced the filters on my dust mask when I was done. I bagged all of the plaster as I took it down and cleaned up the mess with a shop vac that had a bag and a hepa style filter. I had also taped off the room for the reno to keep the dust in the work space. Finally I made sure my furnace was off so it didn't kick on and circulate air until I was done. I didn't have a means of negative air pressure so I skipped that step.

Tiling over an existing floor may be common practice but it's pretty sloppy in my opinion and you're left with an ugly threshold.

When it came to removing my vinyl tile (without asbestos) the subfloor wasn't glued down so it was actually a really clean and easy job. I bought a 36" crowbar and was able to pry up the sub floor and take the tile with it. It probably took an hour to rip the floor up and another hour to carry it out to the dumpster. If yours is that easy too and your tests do come back positive you at least won't be exposed for that long.

Good info, thanks.

How old was/is the house?

I wonder if you can rent that HEPA shop vac maybe at Home Depot or somewhere?

Also, how much did that test cost if you don't mind me asking?

kevman · 05-04-2015, 09:50 PM

The house is from 1950 but I don't know when the additional vinyl tiles were installed.

I used my Rigid shop vac and bought the green "hepa style" filter for it (~$50) and used a vacuum bag for extra precaution/easier clean up. Don't know if anyone rents them but you can probably outfit your existing shop vac.

I seem to recall my tests were $100 for the first sample (floor) and $50 for every additional sample (wall). However I wasn't in a rush so I didn't pay to have it rushed which I believe is another $25 or $50 or so.

Flames_Gimp · 05-04-2015, 10:10 PM

when I was young and stupid, when I bought my house, we ripped out the old tile, and the 1970's/80's lino without wearing masks.

We found it was not possible to peel/scrape off the lino, was too brittle. so we had to pry the subfloor, and of course it was particle board so it would break into small pieces as you pry it up. The previous owners tiled right over the lino, which failed miserably.

we used pry bars and a shovel and a rigid shopvac with the hepa filter just like kevman.
house was built in 1971

sa226 · 05-04-2015, 10:11 PM

I'm in pretty much the same boat as you. Renovating an old condo. I'm covering the lino (with laminate) just to keep it simple.

Based on my research the asbestos is in the black adhesive that glued the lino to the subfloor. If undisturbed the asbestos won't even become airborne. But if you start chipping or sanding the glue, then you have an issue.

Buzzard · 05-05-2015, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa226

I'm in pretty much the same boat as you. Renovating an old condo. I'm covering the lino (with laminate) just to keep it simple.

Based on my research the asbestos is in the black adhesive that glued the lino to the subfloor. If undisturbed the asbestos won't even become airborne. But if you start chipping or sanding the glue, then you have an issue.

Yeah I've read that, but also read the actual vinyl has it in the backing as well. I'm unsure if I should have it tested after I've ripped it out. It's probably something that's gonna drive me insane not knowing, yet drive me insane if I find out it is! lol

Fwiw, the adhesive on this stuff looks to be a grayish white.

OutOfTheCube · 05-05-2015, 07:33 AM

"Good news is, the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show a median latency of forty-four point six years, so if you're thirty or older, you're laughing. Worst case scenario, you miss out on a few rounds of canasta."

Buzzard · 05-05-2015, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

"Good news is, the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show a median latency of forty-four point six years, so if you're thirty or older, you're laughing. Worst case scenario, you miss out on a few rounds of canasta."

lol...thanks for the humor, I need a bit of that right now.

You know, as I'm working away at this I'm thinking to myself life must of been so much better in the days of where we knew no better of anything. Every single thing we do these days seems to have some calculated risk attached to it. We've turned into a society full of of, paranoid, pill popping panic merchants. And if we get too nervous, there's a pill for that. We're trained from birth almost anymore to be cautious of every damn step we make.

This whole floor thing the last day turned me into a nervous wreck. Honestly, if it were just me here, I probably wouldn't have wasted more than hour of stress over it. I'd have grabbed a mask, shop vac, and just got at it.

I like the old days better....hopefully no one in the house misses any canasta. I love that game!

SportsJunky · 05-05-2015, 08:04 AM

I have ripped out many a vinyl floor. In my youth I was a laborer for a commercial flooring company. It's not the blackout adhesive you need to worry about imo. I don't think this is as big a deal as you might think. You need to take some precautions if you are doing the work yourself but the asbestos that is in the vinyl is part of the composition of the product. It is not easy to release the asbestos from the vinyl. By the way, is this sheet vinyl or square tile vct? If it's vct...have at 'er. The risk would be minimal at most. If it's cushioned sheet vinyl you'll need to take a little more care but it should be easy enough to pull it up in large pieces thus reducing any risk. If it is flat, un-cushioned sheet vinyl, you'll be fine as well.

GGG · 05-05-2015, 08:10 AM

Toss on a full mask (gas mask style not SARS mask style) and keep the dust down. If you have anyone else in the house make sure you tape off the area especially any air return ducts in the room as they will distribute the asbestos everywhere.

Buzzard · 05-05-2015, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

I have ripped out many a vinyl floor. In my youth I was a laborer for a commercial flooring company. It's not the blackout adhesive you need to worry about imo. I don't think this is as big a deal as you might think. You need to take some precautions if you are doing the work yourself but the asbestos that is in the vinyl is part of the composition of the product. It is not easy to release the asbestos from the vinyl. By the way, is this sheet vinyl or square tile vct? If it's vct...have at 'er. The risk would be minimal at most. If it's cushioned sheet vinyl you'll need to take a little more care but it should be easy enough to pull it up in large pieces thus reducing any risk. If it is flat, un-cushioned sheet vinyl, you'll be fine as well.

It's sheet vinyl. I'm sure it's entry level quality (little cushioning).

Here's a couple pics.

GoinAllTheWay · 05-05-2015, 12:38 PM

I'm no expert but as someone who has done reading up on the same subject (DIY'er with a condo built in the 70's), that lino does not strike me as having asbestos in it.

Even if it did, you are working with the "safest" form of it. The really dangerous stuff is the kind in old plaster, ceiling tiles or vermiculite in attics.

You can buy a full blown dust mask with filter designed especially for asbestos. Based on those pics, it appears to be coming up pretty clean. Cut with a sharp knife, bag and get it out of your house you will probably be just fine. This one job isn't likely to have any impact on you at all.

I totally understand your concern though.

My girlfriends dad told me stories not long ago how they used to cut sheets of asbestos with a table saw....good Lord. He was recently diagnosed with COPD but seems to be coping just fine.

llwhiteoutll · 05-05-2015, 02:36 PM

Leave it in place. You can use metal lath stapled right to the existing floor as both an anchor for the thinset and to build the height up a little bit. Did this for our laundry area, mud room and main level bathroom with no issues.

You Need a Thneed · 05-05-2015, 02:38 PM

The negative effects of asbestos are somewhat overblown, for some forms of it.

Ripping off a floor that's not creating a lot of dust, wearing a dust mask, and vacuuming with a hepa filter, once in your life, will quite literally have zero health effect on yourself.

For guys that do asbestos for a profession, where they do it everyday, that's a different story.

Buff · 05-05-2015, 02:51 PM

I'm no expert on dates but that vinyl doesn't look like something that would have been installed during the era they used asbestos. But, again, I'm no expert. Your best bet is to have it tested by an actual expert.

You Need a Thneed · 05-05-2015, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buff

I'm no expert on dates but that vinyl doesn't look like something that would have been installed during the era they used asbestos. But, again, I'm no expert. Your best bet is to have it tested by an actual expert.

That stuff looks like it was made in the 90s, which would mean no asbestos.