Nutrition

[Devils'Advocate]

I'm not exactly sure which forum this is supposed to be in. The food and entertainment forum seem more geared towards "which restaurants are best" or the proper way to prepare or cook something.... not really diet related. If the mods think otherwise, please move it with my apologies.

I said to someone yesterday that if I took all the meal plans that I have been given over the years by family doctors, internists, psychiatrists, personal trainers, nutritionists, registered dieticians, etc, I'd have enough paper to wallpaper my bedroom.

The book that I am currently reading really pushes the paleo diet... so whatever a caveman could have eaten is okay, the rest is out. So eggs, meat, plants such as fruits and vegetables are all okay... but legumes, starches and sugars are all out. As is dairy. The author is Dr. Barbara Berkeley.

The diet is QUITE similar to that which I was given by my personal trainer in terms of being very, very low in starchy carbs. The typical day on the PT's diet is "Breakfast: 3 eggs, 3 egg whites, steamed vegetables, whey shake; Lunch: Beef strips in a bed of salad with olive oil dressing; Dinner: chicken, mixed vegetables; Snacks: Almonds, raw vegetables". Or day 2: "Breakfast: Whey shake with berries, full fat plain yogurt; Lunch: hardboiled eggs, ham and veggies; Dinner: ground beef, mixed vegetables; Snack: Apple, raw vegetables" So, again, no legumes, no starches, no sugars. So very similar to what the doctor above prescribed.

However, as a vegetarian, the paleo diet is really, really hard to do given that I use legumes (beans - be they soy, kidney, lima, chickpeas, etc) for protein. As well as greek yogurt. But for the last 4 months that I have been working with the PT, I have started doing the whey powder smoothies and doing a LOT more eggs/egg whites.

So I was sent to a dietician yesterday by my psychiatrist (I don't want to complicate things too much by explaining why a psychiatrist is sending me to a dietician). The dietician basically ripped the meal plan apart. Basically "The reality is that you need carbohydrates in your diet. They provide energy, vitamins, minerals and fibre. Adults should be getting 65% of their daily caloric intake from carbohydrates." She went to town on the paleo diet ("cavemen did survive hundreds of thousands of years on that diet... 30 years at a time"; "Yes, there are doctors touting this diet, but doctors have to take 1 course on nutrition in their whole education. On the other hand registered dieticians spend years studying nutrition"). The dietician outright said that her meal plan was based primarily on the Canadian Food Guide. She wanted me to have 12 servings of starchy carbs in one day where a serving would be things like a slice of bread, six crackers, an Eggo-sized pancake or 1 cup of Special K.

So it would be a VERY, VERY, VERY different diet than what the PT has me on. So I went to the PT this morning and we chatted. "I had a friend who was asked to sit on the working group that came up with the Canadian Food Guide. She decided not to once she looked at who else was on the committee. She was to be the ONLY dietician in the room... everyone else was a representative of industry. The food guide is a mess because of political lobbying and should be taken with a huge grain of salt, if not ignored outright".

So I am lost as to who to trust. I do know that the last time I went with more carbs, I gained 15 pounds which is why I started going to see the personal trainer. Since I've been with the personal trainer my weight has gone down 5 pounds and my body fat has gone from 23% to 19.8%. So the low-starchy carbs diet SEEMS to be working for me, but my GP, my psychiatrist and the dietician are all shaking their heads. There just seems to be so much conflicting advice out there that people just don't know what they are supposed to be eating.

[onetwo_threefour]

Not any kind of expert here, and while I am normally anti-conspiracy theory and respect educated expert opinion, in this case I'd side with the PT. Anecdotally, eliminating starchy carbs (combined with lots of exercise) was my key to losing weight. I went from the perspective of glycolic index and foods that didn't spike blood sugar and cravings.

As soon as your dietician says that doctors only have to take one course about nutrition, you've got to start questioning her objectivity. Doctors have to understand a lot more than just nutrition including basic biology and chemistry.

I have heard similar things about lobbying influencing the food guide and there may be something to it, but my own take comes from my own research and experience. I think the food guide is probably fine for those who aren't sensitive to blood sugar fluctuations AND who work at physically intensive occupations, but for those of us that sit at a desk, have a lot of stress, and may be more sensitive to glucose variations, the food guide is just not appropriate.

[Flabbibulin]

I think it is important to clarify the misunderstood concept that carbs are what make people gain weight/and or unable to lose. Insulin resistance is largely what makes a high carb diet lead to weight gain/make it difficult to lose weight. Increasing ones sensitivity to insulin (which is the opposite of insulin resistance) is not a simple or quick task, but it basically comes down to the type of carbs you are eating and at what times.

While very low carb diets have been used for years now in the weight loss circle, they can be difficult to maintain and make it extremely difficult to follow if you are regularly working out. Certainly plenty of people do it, but it is difficult.

I have always been a proponent of a well balanced diet, monitoring the type of carbs you eat, combined with 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight and around .4 to .5 grams of fat for every pound.

The most commonsense advice, for someone trying to lose weight, is to calculate your BMR (with consideration for activity levels) and subtract 500 calories per day. This is making things a little simplistic, but that works out to 3500 a week and 1 pound lost per week. Counting calories is a pain for some, but it typically needs to be incorporated into the routine of someone trying to lose a decent amount of weight.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

I'm no expert, but my take is that you shouldn't really trust anyone who claims that there is only 1 way to lose weght or eat a healty diet, whether it be a Paleo diet, or the canada food plan, or their own methods.

The fact of the matter is, everyone is different. Depending on your previous lifestyle, your current lifestyle, your activity level, and what kind of activity you do, and what your goals are (run a marathon, vs straight up body compostion), you're going to have different requirements.

If you see anyone who is trying to prescribe a certain diet without asking you about all those factors and more, then I would't be using them as a source of truth.

[Street Pharmacist]

Also be careful about reasoning. I would be very curious as to why you should eat what a caveman ate. I can't see a compelling reason. If you follow a diet that excludes groups of foods (especially carbohydrates), you will likely lose weight because it's difficult to get the amount of calories you'd need to maintain our gain weight. A well balanced diet is harder because you have to focus on portion sizes, not exclusion. I would imagine the second one is healthier, but only because you're more likely to get a little bit of many nutrients. I have nothing to back that up

I'm no expert on the subject, but I can tell you the body has a myriad of checks and balances to keep homeostasis. These measures allow us to survive and thrive on very different diets.
A personal trainer has a certificate. A dietician has 5 years of university learning about anatomy, physiology, pathology, nutrition, etc.

[Devils'Advocate]

Well, that's not always the case. My PT has this:
http://www.uottawa.ca/academic/info/...rams/1193.html
Actually she has her masters, so that's 6 years of university learning about anatomy, physiology, nutrition, etc....

As for reasoning, I have been obese in the past and am trying to maintain my current weight. So I am reading "Refuse to Regain" which pushes the paleo diet. The gist of it is that formerly overweight people are hypersenstive to starchy carbs. The more weight you have lost, the more sensitive one is.

The summary to chapter 4 is:
- "S Foods" are sugars and starches. Both result in adding sugar to the bloodstream.
- S Foods are generally newcomers to the human diet and are not essential for health
- In previously overweight people, S Foods trigger hunger and weight gain
- S Foods have an addictive quality
- Avoiding S Foods improve your odds of successful long-term maintenance.

[undercoverbrother]

Eat like a horse, work like a horse.

[blankall]

I'm not an expert either but, the main things to think about IMO are total calories and protein intake. The reason why diets like the paleo-diet are effective is because they limit calories while keeping protein high.

There's nothing evil about carbs. They just happen to be the easiest thing to eliminate from your diet that will accomplish the goals of limiting calories without limiting protein. Plus it's really easy to overeat if your eating processed flours and sugars. Humans have basically taken plants and extracted and concentrated calories from them. In a time when we struggled to reach our calorie goals, this was a huge advantage. Now it leads to over eating.

There's also supposedly some effects on appetite too. Apparently lean meats will fill your appetite in fewer calories than carb heavy foods.

Basically, my overall point is this. These diets are all window dressing. In order to lose weight you need to find a way to decrease calories while maintaining protein intake. Carbs aren't evil, but they are the easiest thing to eliminate from your diet. Carbs are also very easy to over indulge on.

These diets will work for people who have trouble controlling their own appetite or structuring healthy meals. However, the problem with an ultra strict diet is they are hard to maintain. You're much better off thinking about the basics and making manageable changes to your lifestyle and diet.

[Azure]

Your original diet actually looks very good. Maybe add some more brown rice, oatmeal, and actual whole wheat bread. Brown rice is especially nutritious.

IMO, carb intake should be dictated by your activity level. Someone that is very active, plays sports, works out, etc, etc needs more carbs than someone who sits at a desk all day and works out in the evening for 45 min, 3-5x per week.

As for actually needing carbs because of all their supposed benefits, you can easily get all your 'needed' vitamins/minerals with 100g of carbs per day. The blanket idea that you should get 65% of your calories from 'carbs' is a bunch of horse crap and has been for a long time.

Paleo has been taken out of context, IMO. Sticking to 'natural' food sources is great and all, but there are a lot of holes in the way they go about it. That being said, I personally see nothing wrong with your original diet. In fact it looks damn good. If you are lacking energy, add some healthy carbs like brown rice and oatmeal.

EDIT: Sweet potatoes are an amazing source of healthy carbs as well.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't know if I've ever stuck to a fad diet. I lost weight recently by balancing out what I was eating, taking a lot of the garbage (pop, sweeets heavily fried stuff and fast food) out and taking bread and processed sugars out. And it seemed to work for me.

The problem with these set piece diets like Paelo or that guys diet where you pretty much ate meat is that you lose weight due to a shock to your system but it doesn't seem to last.

There's nothing the matter with eating like a cave man, and eating basic clean foods but its a tough diet to stick to and you need incredible discipline for the rest of your life pretty much.

Sometimes I think our parents generation had the right idea with the four food groups. make sure you get your fruits, grains, meats with fat drained off and other proteins and dairy. Then get off of your a$$ turn off the T.V. or the computer and go outside and run around for two hours.

[Flabbibulin]

Devil's Advocate, maybe I'm just not reading carefully enough, but just to clarify- are you a vegetarian? The diet given to you by PT includes a crap load of meat, but did they not give you some diet schedules without meat?

And I agree with Azure- the first diet you listed looks pretty good to me, but there probably is room for a little more complex carbs such as brown rice, oatmeal etc... Excluding meat is tricky though.

edit- perhaps look into some stuff written by Bill Pearl. A well respected vegetarian bodybuilder that was able to have a high protein diet as a vegetarian. I'm pretty sure he included dairy and eggs in his diet.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Well, that's not always the case. My PT has this:
http://www.uottawa.ca/academic/info/...rams/1193.html
Actually she has her masters, so that's 6 years of university learning about anatomy, physiology, nutrition, etc....

As for reasoning, I have been obese in the past and am trying to maintain my current weight. So I am reading "Refuse to Regain" which pushes the paleo diet. The gist of it is that formerly overweight people are hypersenstive to starchy carbs. The more weight you have lost, the more sensitive one is.

The summary to chapter 4 is:
- "S Foods" are sugars and starches. Both result in adding sugar to the bloodstream.
- S Foods are generally newcomers to the human diet and are not essential for health
- In previously overweight people, S Foods trigger hunger and weight gain
- S Foods have an addictive quality
- Avoiding S Foods improve your odds of successful long-term maintenance.

That makes more sense than: eat what cave men eat. That screams fad. If these claims have validity, then fine. I see so many charlatans claiming strange things like "sharks don't get cancer so easy their cartilage", so I'm always skeptical of strange claims

[CaptainCrunch]

The latest thing I've heard on the radio is that guy with the green coffee pill who claims that he lost 63 pounds and 6 pant sizes in 6 weeks with no effort while eating whatever he wants.

These miracle weightloss drugs are extremely dangerous.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...rticle6116816/

“Usually when studies break the physical laws of the universe, there’s usually something wrong with the study itself,” said Dr. Yoni Freedhoff, medical director of Ottawa’s Bariatric Medical Institute, who writes Weighty Matters, a popular blog on nutrition issues.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I would be very curious as to why you should eat what a caveman ate. I can't see a compelling reason.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

Devil's Advocate, maybe I'm just not reading carefully enough, but just to clarify- are you a vegetarian? The diet given to you by PT includes a crap load of meat, but did they not give you some diet schedules without meat?

And I agree with Azure- the first diet you listed looks pretty good to me, but there probably is room for a little more complex carbs such as brown rice, oatmeal etc... Excluding meat is tricky though.

edit- perhaps look into some stuff written by Bill Pearl. A well respected vegetarian bodybuilder that was able to have a high protein diet as a vegetarian. I'm pretty sure he included dairy and eggs in his diet.

I'm curious about this as well.

The paleo-diet does not mesh with vegetarianism. The paleo-diet is laregely composed of green vegetables, which have almost no calories, and meat. Vegetarianims requires you to get protein/calories from legumes and processed foods like flours and soy, which are excluded by the paleo-diet.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by blankall

I'm not an expert either but, the main things to think about IMO are total calories and protein intake. The reason why diets like the paleo-diet are effective is because they limit calories while keeping protein high.

There's nothing evil about carbs. They just happen to be the easiest thing to eliminate from your diet that will accomplish the goals of limiting calories without limiting protein. Plus it's really easy to overeat if your eating processed flours and sugars. Humans have basically taken plants and extracted and concentrated calories from them. In a time when we struggled to reach our calorie goals, this was a huge advantage. Now it leads to over eating.

There's also supposedly some effects on appetite too. Apparently lean meats will fill your appetite in fewer calories than carb heavy foods.

Basically, my overall point is this. These diets are all window dressing. In order to lose weight you need to find a way to decrease calories while maintaining protein intake. Carbs aren't evil, but they are the easiest thing to eliminate from your diet. Carbs are also very easy to over indulge on.

These diets will work for people who have trouble controlling their own appetite or structuring healthy meals. However, the problem with an ultra strict diet is they are hard to maintain. You're much better off thinking about the basics and making manageable changes to your lifestyle and diet.

Pretty much this.

Expend more calories than you intake, maintain your nutrients while doing so (either through supplements or proper nutrition).

[Azure]

If you're not getting protein from meat, you have to get it from eggs, dairy and whey. Not sure that is a good idea either if you're trying to avoid carbs.

[WilderPegasus]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

So I was sent to a dietician yesterday by my psychiatrist (I don't want to complicate things too much by explaining why a psychiatrist is sending me to a dietician). The dietician basically ripped the meal plan apart. Basically "The reality is that you need carbohydrates in your diet. They provide energy, vitamins, minerals and fibre. Adults should be getting 65% of their daily caloric intake from carbohydrates." She went to town on the paleo diet ("cavemen did survive hundreds of thousands of years on that diet... 30 years at a time"; "Yes, there are doctors touting this diet, but doctors have to take 1 course on nutrition in their whole education. On the other hand registered dieticians spend years studying nutrition"). The dietician outright said that her meal plan was based primarily on the Canadian Food Guide. She wanted me to have 12 servings of starchy carbs in one day where a serving would be things like a slice of bread, six crackers, an Eggo-sized pancake or 1 cup of Special K.

The dietician sounds like a quack. They need five years of education just to follow the Canadian Food Guide? Sounds like a bunch of slow learners to me.

And do a slice of bread, six crackers, an Eggo-sized pancake or 1 cup of Special K really sound like nutritious foods or better sources of vitamins, minerals and fibre than vegetables or even fruit?

That's not withstanding the 30 year life span for cavemen was due to the low infant mortality rate that brought the average down considerably.

[JD]

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

That's not withstanding the 30 year life span for cavemen was due to the low infant mortality rate that brought the average down considerably.

Well don't discount the fact that their statistics and records keeping was cavemanish, at best. I mean, writing on cave walls? At least crack open a spreadsheet for the love of man.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

If you're not getting protein from meat, you have to get it from eggs, dairy and whey. Not sure that is a good idea either if you're trying to avoid carbs.

How is that? Eggs and dairy are not starchy carbs.

Knowing that I was vegetarian, the PT did give me a second sheet, but it was more geared towards vegans:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 1/3 cup of oatmeal, protein shake with flaxmeal, 3oz berries; Lunch: 2 small muffins, unsalted sunflower seeds, nutmilk, cucumber; Dinner: large salad with avacado"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Half an english muffin with 3 tbsp of almond butter, veggies with hummus; Lunch: protein shake, nutmilk, lentil salad; Dinner: sweet potato, steamed zucchini, beet salad with flax oil dressing"

Almost none of that seemed appealling... so I sorta built my own:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 3 eggs, 3 egg whites, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, soy chicken breast, grapes; Dinner: veggie wrap x 2, Snack: almonds"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Smoothie with berries and whey powder, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, vegetarian chilli with tofu; Dinner: green beans, quinoa, vegetarian ribs Snack: apple, hard boiled eggs

I haven't run that diet by anybody.... I was going to run it by the dietician yesterday until I realized that she had her own meal plan she wanted me to use and wasn't interested in seeing what I drew up.