Just a thought: Sven for Gormley

[Matt Reeeeead]

Not saying a straight up (probably an add on our side).

The connection is obvious.

Each team gets a need piece.

Both are NHL cusp but no NHL success.

Similar age 21/22.

Precludes the need to do something silly and make expensive add for Ekblad.

Replenish the forward loss in Sven with our draft pick.

So what say you? Is Gormley a likely top 4 guy? I think he is, sooner than later. Came up in a well coached system for defensive players. Could the Coyotes get a more established forward for him? Probably not, at least not a high upside one.

[codynw]

[Matty81]

Gormley makes me sad... can we redo the Jokinen trade?

Nothing worse than being a team that is past it with no chance that won't admit it and keeps trading picks for stopgaps.

[Mass_nerder]

Olli Jokinen was worth it, right guys?

[Ashasx]

how has Baertschi had no NHL success?

[Hockey_Ninja]

Just a thought: Lets develop our own prospects for once.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by codynw

Seems like a decent proposal. Don't know much about Gormley, but people seem to have a high opinion of him. Probably not thread worthy, but I don't think the fallout is going to be as entertaining as you think it's going to be.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

how has Baertschi had no NHL success?

He has had 21 career points, and has subsequently be determined not to be NHL ready (yet).

Ask a fan of a playoff team what NHL success is.

That isn't it.

[Drury18]

1) We don't want Gormley. There's a reason he can't crack the Phoenix lineup. And it's not because they are highly skilled and have depth on the farm team. I followed the Coyotes and Pirates pretty closely this year (Klesla fan) and yea, we don't want him.

2) Coyotes like big bodies in the lineup, not small guys. Can't see Sven's fate getting any better going to the Coyotes and he probably won't crack that lineup either as Maloney and Tippet would never use him. They probably wouldn't trade for a guy like him either.

We would be better off dangling Sven in front of Boston and seeing which one of those big defence guys we can get back for him. Better fit, better chance at a good return.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

Just a thought: Lets develop our own prospects for once.

We are... Thinking that we should never trade them though is illogical. This is the whole reason we do the BPA thing. Draft good assets and then shuffle. Something makes me think that the amount of promising prospects that go out the door in the next 5 years is going to blow the mind of many posters, despite the fact that it is a winning formula if done selectively.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

Just a thought: Lets develop our own prospects for once.

Well, no problem with that. I like Sven, I think he will turn out to be a good second line scorer.

I just personally have the mentality of starting defense out when rebuilding a team. I like Gormley. I think he's NHL ready and has a current NHL skill set, and maybe one of a few of those kind of defensemen that could be had from a team with strong defense and prospects at the position.

Really hard to get them after NHL success, so just looking at a guy who I think is on that cusp and get him before he's unobtainable. Have to give to get.

Just an idea.

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

He has had 21 career points, and has subsequently be determined not to be NHL ready (yet).

Ask a fan of a playoff team what NHL success is.

That isn't it.

24 in 51 games.
I'm not saying that those numbers will translate into him being hugely successful in the NHL, but it seems that he's on the right track.
I think with some of the pressure coming off, as other prospects step into the spotlight (monahan, whoever we pick at 4), he might be able to develop a good NHL game.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

He has had 21 career points, and has subsequently be determined not to be NHL ready (yet).

Ask a fan of a playoff team what NHL success is.

That isn't it.

You confuse "great hockey player" with "NHL success".

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Drury18

1) We don't want Gormley. There's a reason he can't crack the Phoenix lineup. And it's not because they are highly skilled and have depth on the farm team. I followed the Coyotes and Pirates pretty closely this year (Klesla fan) and yea, we don't want him.

2) Coyotes like big bodies in the lineup, not small guys. Can't see Sven's fate getting any better going to the Coyotes and he probably won't crack that lineup either as Maloney and Tippet would never use him. They probably wouldn't trade for a guy like him either.

We would be better off dangling Sven in front of Boston and seeing which one of those big defence guys we can get back for him. Better fit, better chance at a good return.

Difference of opinion, but fair points.

Other side is that Gormley only 22, most defensemen develop kinda slow. Certainly aren't watching the final product (same as Sven). I think two guys at similar points in their careers.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

24 in 51 games.
I'm not saying that those numbers will translate into him being hugely successful in the NHL, but it seems that he's on the right track.
I think with some of the pressure coming off, as other prospects step into the spotlight (monahan, whoever we pick at 4), he might be able to develop a good NHL game.

24 points in 51 games is essentially meaningless without proper context.

Many AHL calibre players can do that given the requisite PP time (which Sven was given) and minutes sheltered from top D men (which Sven was). Add in the fact that he wasn't defensively ready, and it would be fair to say that Sven wasn't an overall positive contributor at the NHL level.

There's a reason that a full season later he still hasn't been summoned.

I like the guy, but purely looking at points in a sheltered, limited sample size isn't proof of anything, or valuable analysis. It's more valuable to know that the NHL guys still see him as an AHL player (at the moment), and he hasn't torn it up in the AHL.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

He has had 21 career points, and has subsequently be determined not to be NHL ready (yet).

Ask a fan of a playoff team what NHL success is.

That isn't it.

My numbers show 24 points in 51 games, he has a better PPG average than Scheifele, Zibanejad and Couturier.... picked before him from that draft class.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Fine guys, Baertschi was so awesome at the NHL that the Flames deemed that needed more time in the minors. Cool.

But really, ok, you didn't like the words I chose. What's your point? He wasn't NHL material at any point in the last season, and is a guy fighting for a roster spot to start the season. What needs to be said more than that at this point? He has not yet proven to be an NHL player (otherwise he could crack the Flames). All I'm really doing is drawing a comparison to the career path at the moment to Gormley.

Saying he got some points in a limited sample, while doing so in a sheltered, PP filled role, in mostly garbage points of lost seasons, and playing poor defense is not an impressive showing. The NHL is littered with former players that had much more impressive point totals in small samples that failed to have staying power. Why? Because of role context. Baertschi didn't forget how to play hockey last season. He had the same flaws holding him back when he accumulated those points that he has now. You just probably didn't notice.

[Drury18]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

Difference of opinion, but fair points.

Other side is that Gormley only 22, most defensemen develop kinda slow. Certainly aren't watching the final product (same as Sven). I think two guys at similar points in their careers.

We have a handful of other defensive prospects who are also near that age: Wotherspoon, Sieloff, Kanzig, Cudari, Kulak, Roy and Culkin.

I don't see why we pick up another D prospect to develop when the ones named above look like they have the same potential to crack the lineup in the next couple of years. We don't need another defence prospect to groom. Abbotsford played with a surplus of defenceman, sometimes using them as forwards as well as sending them down to Alaska just to get them some time. Cundari was loaned to another team because we had enough. It's only going to get more crowded if/when Kulak, Roy, Seiloff and Kanzig are AHL ready to go this year.

Again, if we are going to use Baertschi as bait, I'd rather see a return of a defenceman that is immediately going to play and impact our Top 4. That is where the need is right now.

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

24 points in 51 games is essentially meaningless without proper context.

Many AHL calibre players can do that given the requisite PP time (which Sven was given) and minutes sheltered from top D men (which Sven was). Add in the fact that he wasn't defensively ready, and it would be fair to say that Sven wasn't an overall positive contributor at the NHL level.

There's a reason that a full season later he still hasn't been summoned.

I like the guy, but purely looking at points in a sheltered, limited sample size isn't proof of anything, or valuable analysis. It's more valuable to know that the NHL guys still see him as an AHL player (at the moment), and he hasn't torn it up in the AHL.

Proper context? Are you saying that a player who gets pp time and doesn't play against other top lines should be discounted?
He's a young player. You can't expect him to step into the NHL and automatically have a complete game, especially when he wasn't a top 5 pick.
I think he's shown hints at what he might be able to do, but it'll take some more time to fully develop.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Drury18

We have a handful of other defensive prospects who are also near that age: Wotherspoon, Sieloff, Kanzig, Cudari, Kulak, Roy and Culkin.

I don't see why we pick up another D prospect to develop when the ones named above look like they have the same potential to crack the lineup in the next couple of years. We don't need another defence prospect to groom. Abbotsford played with a surplus of defenceman, sometimes using them as forwards as well as sending them down to Alaska just to get them some time. Cundari was loaned to another team because we had enough. It's only going to get more crowded if/when Kulak, Roy, Seiloff and Kanzig are AHL ready to go this year.

Again, if we are going to use Baertschi as bait, I'd rather see a return of a defenceman that is immediately going to play and impact our Top 4. That is where the need is right now.

I don't see any of those guys having the upside of Gormley for one and secondly I don't see most of those guys having anything more than bottom pairing roles in the NHL (if they get that).

I for sure like Wotherspoon and Sielloff in various roles, but Gormley to me is potentially more than that. Also, I'm not recommending Gorms for AHL duty next year. I clearly stated I envisioned him being ready for the NHL leap next season.