Whisper Gen Stirling Engine / Micro Generation

[Hack&Lube]

A few years ago, Alberta started doing studies into regulating micro generation - home/business users generating their own power and feeding back excess into the grid.

At work today, I heard from a co-worker that some people in Calgary have Whisper Gen Generators that use Stirling Engines in their homes. These will generate home electricity cheaply on natural gas and are about the size of a dishwasher.

I am very interested in getting one installed.

Does anybody have any idea where I should start? My internet searches are coming up somewhat fruitless, only finding studies or news articles from 2010 (the Zoo installed some).

[FLAMESRULE]

I'm very interested in this as well!! Seems like a very good idea on the surface. Some quick googling results. Seems more like a very high level research project with the gov't. That last link explains the Enmax / MicroGen partnership + application. Says they're not powerful enough for the Canadian winters...

http://www.nist.gov/el/upload/6-2-Ri...-in-Canada.pdf
http://www.ccht-cctr.gc.ca/eng/proje..._stirling.html
http://www.cjconnect.ca/index.php?op...tner&Itemid=11

[Hack&Lube]

Here's an image of the commercial units that install into your kitchen from several years ago. I don't need it for heat. Just power.

[GP_Matt]

I love the idea, although am not sure why you would put it in your kitchen.
The other problem is that half of my bill is access fees and distribution charges so reducing the electricity usage wouldn't go that far to reduce my costs.
I wonder how the GHG emissions change when you burn natural gas on a small scale for electricity vs coal generated electricity that has to travel a long distance to get to your house.

[stampsx2]

Why don't they have treadmills and exercise bikes you could plug into your grid. Produces a lot of energy and could cut down on your electricity bill. Bit of a motivator to excersise in a blackout or those with very high electricity bills. I'm guessing the power generation would be minimal or something?

[bizaro86]

I've tried to buy them in the past, and haven't been able to. I don't think Enmax is still selling them now that they fired Gary Holden. They would be ideal for apartments that are already hot water heated.

[photon]

So this is just taking advantage of natural gas pricing being low enough that electricity generated by these is cheaper than electricity off the grid?

If enough of these were installed wouldn't that stop being the case?

[annasuave]

got nothing useful to add here - I thought Stirling cycle engines were a bit of a technological oddity from the 1800's. I'd be interested to to know more about them and potential modern applications. Any links or relevant articles about their modern applications?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by photon

So this is just taking advantage of natural gas pricing being low enough that electricity generated by these is cheaper than electricity off the grid?

If enough of these were installed wouldn't that stop being the case?

Pretty much on gas prices. There is also savings on the variable cost of electricity distribution. Installed generation would have to become pretty ubiquitous to move gas prices by itself. That's unlikely (imo) since it's not a great replacement where the hvac is set up for forced air, it's much more economic as a replacement for a boiler in a hot water heating system.

Plus, if gas prices go up, electricity prices will have to go up in tandem since gas is the marginal generation in Alberta. So the margins will likely always be there, even if they're not as good as they are currently.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Here's an image of the commercial units that install into your kitchen from several years ago. I don't need it for heat. Just power.

You're gonna to have to deal with the waste heat away. According to the specs it produces 1 KW of electricity with 7.5 to 8.3 KW of heat with an additional burner that can boost heat output up to 14.5 KW.

[bizaro86]

Along the same lines, micro-turbines are also pretty neat. They are generally similar to turbines used for co-gen in large facilities. The smallest I've been able to find is 30kW, which isn't really suitable for home use, imo. However, gas turbines are a more "established" technology than Stirling engines.
http://www.capstoneturbine.com/prodsol/products/

Edited to add: Smaller systems are in development. This company in the Netherlands has a 3kW microturbine that they're developing. It only does ~50,000 btu/hr for hot water, which wouldn't be enough to heat a house here. You'd either need 2 or supplementary heat for the coldest days. http://www.mtt-eu.com/applications/micro-chp

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

You're gonna to have to deal with the waste heat away. According to the specs it produces 1 KW of electricity with 7.5 to 8.3 KW of heat with an additional burner that can boost heat output up to 14.5 KW.

Seems like the smart thing to do would be to integrate these generators with a furnace somehow... Produce heat for your home while also supplementing electricity. Can the CP brain trust please get to work on this?

[rd_aaron]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Why don't they have treadmills and exercise bikes you could plug into your grid. Produces a lot of energy and could cut down on your electricity bill. Bit of a motivator to excersise in a blackout or those with very high electricity bills. I'm guessing the power generation would be minimal or something?

A single stationary bike would hardly produce enough energy to make any kind of difference.

Even if you were able to put out 250W for an entire hour of biking (someone in good shape), and with electricity at the 8 cents/kilowatt-hour I currently pay, you'd save a total of 2 cents (.25kW-hr * 8 cents/kW-hr).

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by rd_aaron

A single stationary bike would hardly produce enough energy to make any kind of difference.

Even if you were able to put out 250W for an entire hour of biking (someone in good shape), and with electricity at the 8 cents/kilowatt-hour I currently pay, you'd save a total of 2 cents (.25kW-hr * 8 cents/kW-hr).

It doesn't work like that. For you to bike for an entire hour would require an caloric intake of food far greater than 2 cents. So you would gen the value of 2 cents and consume the value of ten dollars.

[rd_aaron]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

It doesn't work like that. For you to bike for an entire hour would require an caloric intake of food far greater than 2 cents. So you would gen the value of 2 cents and consume the value of ten dollars.

Yeah, exactly. The only place it could be viable would be a gym, as the gym isn't paying for the food, and they have a ton of bikes/ellipticals running all the time. However, the system to put that energy back on the grid would almost certainly be too expensive to pay itself off in a reasonable amount of time.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by rd_aaron

Yeah, exactly. The only place it could be viable would be a gym, as the gym isn't paying for the food, and they have a ton of bikes/ellipticals running all the time. However, the system to put that energy back on the grid would almost certainly be too expensive to pay itself off in a reasonable amount of time.

You wouldn't need to put it into the grid, just use it to directly power the TVs at the gym. You want to watch? Pedal harder!