This article made me wonder, how do other guys feel about this issue?
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The core issue is this: many, many men in our society feel they have to be needed, because they can’t imagine they could ever be wanted.
Being needed can take different forms, all of which resemble traditional male roles. Brave protector against danger. Breadwinning economic provider. Indispensable handyman. Problem-solving leader. We get any more macho stereotypes in here, it’s gonna look like a Village People reunion. This is what being masculine means in our culture: to be necessary.
One of the most common complaints about feminism, all the way back to the First Wave, is that feminism seeks to make men obsolete or unnecessary. “If women can [fill in anything about female agency] what will they need men for?” runs the line, in every decade, in response to every advance. And while nobody is arguing that that’s a legitimate criticism, it’s important to understand that it arises out of a real fear. Look at the key word in that sentence, need. It’s always the same concept, however that objection is phrased. Plan A, for men in our society, is to be necessary, to be needed, to be indispensable. There is no plan B. If plan A doesn’t come off, we are lost, we’re adrift, we have nothing. This is an existential fear, on a very deep level.
As a personal version of this story, I remember my girlfriend telling me she saw me from a bus window thinking "what a cute guy" for a second before recognizing it was me. Obviously this was meant as a compliment. For reasons then unclear to me I however felt more irritated than anything, and was so convinced she was giving me obviously fake praise that I straight up told her I didn't believe her. Propably not the reaction she was aiming for.
Now, this was roughly 15 years ago and I've grown wiser since, but this story matches so well with my personal experiences and kind of still touches some deep insecurity, that I got curious about how other people feel about this.
This article made me wonder, how do other guys feel about this issue?
As a personal version of this story, I remember my girlfriend telling me she saw me from a bus window thinking "what a cute guy" for a second before recognizing it was me. Obviously this was meant as a compliment. For reasons then unclear to me I however felt more irritated than anything, and was so convinced she was giving me obviously fake praise that I straight up told her I didn't believe her. Propably not the reaction she was aiming for.
Now, this was roughly 15 years ago and I've grown wiser since, but this story matches so well with my personal experiences and kind of still touches some deep insecurity, that I got curious about how other people feel about this.
Comments?
With thoughts and feeling like that you sure you ain't a broad?
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Men have an inherent need to fix things. Cars, houses, bikes, whatever. It makes guys feel good when something breaks to fix it, properly or otherwise. I'm always keeping terrible company with women, because I'm always trying to "fix" them.
I had an ex that would go crazy with lust when I would fix things. My boat broke down in the middle of the okanagan, and I spent an hour fixing it, waist deep in the engine compartment and covered in oil. She went nuts when I finished, telling me how sexy it was that I could do that, and what she wanted to do to me after I fixed the problem.
All I wanted was a GD beer.
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I can't fix anything, and feel no desire to either. The whole idea of having to fix something (cars, houses, bikes etc.) instills fear in me.
And I don't think it's a coincidence that I don't find the article describes me at all. I'm just not that kind of person. What it describes is totally outside my experience.
__________________
"For thousands of years humans were oppressed - as some of us still are - by the notion that the universe is a marionette whose strings are pulled by a god or gods, unseen and inscrutable." - Carl Sagan Freedom consonant with responsibility.
Men have an inherent need to fix things. Cars, houses, bikes, whatever. It makes guys feel good when something breaks to fix it, properly or otherwise. I'm always keeping terrible company with women, because I'm always trying to "fix" them.
I had an ex that would go crazy with lust when I would fix things. My boat broke down in the middle of the okanagan, and I spent an hour fixing it, waist deep in the engine compartment and covered in oil. She went nuts when I finished, telling me how sexy it was that I could do that, and what she wanted to do to me after I fixed the problem.
All I wanted was a GD beer.
Somehow I doubt my ability to tear a PC apart and rebuild it would elicit the same response
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While I understand the sentiment, I think the answer is just being confident and secure in yourself. And that's good for anyone, not just men. If you feel like you have to be needed or wanted, maybe there are other things going on and you need to think about how you view yourself and place in the world.
While I understand the sentiment, I think the answer is just being confident and secure in yourself. And that's good for anyone, not just men. If you feel like you have to be needed or wanted, maybe there are other things going on and you need to think about how you view yourself and place in the world.
I think that goes without saying, and I think many or even most guys find that confidence over the years.
However, that doesn't really change the fact that our culture sets very different expectations for men and women.
From the article:
Quote:
It’s a well-worn observation that media is the first place to look for enforcement of societal norms. A quick glance at our culture’s media demonstrates that it endlessly reinforces the notion of male necessity. On a surface level, there’s the fact that with fictional heroes remaining overwhelmingly white males, if a guy doesn’t show up, there’s no story at all. That’s a nice form of necessity. Deeper than that, though, there’s the structure of every “romantic” subplot in every movie that has a character who can be accurately described as The Girl. Every action movie, every sci-fi epic, all the movies that are stereotypically written off as male power fantasies, all have the same way that the hero gets the girl: he proves his necessity, usually by saving her life. If he weren’t there, she’d literally be dead.
Interestingly, the romantic movies often stereotyped as female fantasies do not generally have this dynamic. Oddly, however, even those rarely focus on the male lead as the object of desire; the female gaze is commonly absent from these stories. Instead the heroine tends to be the object, and the hero prevails by demonstrating that his desire for her is the biggest and most special and pure and so on. Not even in the realm of “chick flicks” about the joys of heterosexual pair-bonding are men seen as desired, as wanted.
One of the often missed points of the feminist/anti-sexist movement that many man pull back almost reflexively from is that achieving a gender neutral society where the man isn't dominant is actually better for men.
Gone is all of the pressure to be the 'man' it would lead to much more loving relationships between all genders.
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One of the often missed points of the feminist/anti-sexist movement that many man pull back almost reflexively from is that achieving a gender neutral society where the man isn't dominant is actually better for men.
Gone is all of the pressure to be the 'man' it would lead to much more loving relationships between all genders.
And of course, many women, even feminists, are known to complain that feminism has a tendency to make men "less sexy".
Deliberately changing a culture is hard. People tend to get very lost and/or annoyed when they can't fall back on "how it's always been done."
People tend to get very lost and/or annoyed when they can't fall back on "how it's always been done."
I disagree with this attitude. I wasn't around when it was done "how it's always been done", so how exactly does it affect me? I was raised in a household where it wasn't even a question whether the sexes were equal. How things worked 25/50/100 years ago has no bearing on my life.
We're all people. Why must people have these needs? Human beings are always looking for meaning. Why can't we all just live our lives to the best and fullest we can as equals?
I realize there's a good chance I'm not the average man here, but this discussion is incredibly foreign to me.
__________________
"For thousands of years humans were oppressed - as some of us still are - by the notion that the universe is a marionette whose strings are pulled by a god or gods, unseen and inscrutable." - Carl Sagan Freedom consonant with responsibility.
I think this is again one of those things that is self-perpetuating between women and men. Men are told this is how a man should act if he wants to secure a woman. Women are then told that these are the types of men they should be trying to attract, and round and round we go.
I think this is again one of those things that is self-perpetuating between women and men. Men are told this is how a man should act if he wants to secure a woman. Women are then told that these are the types of men they should be trying to attract, and round and round we go.
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
I disagree with this attitude. I wasn't around when it was done "how it's always been done", so how exactly does it affect me? I was raised in a household where it wasn't even a question whether the sexes were equal. How things worked 25/50/100 years ago has no bearing on my life.
We're all people. Why must people have these needs? Human beings are always looking for meaning. Why can't we all just live our lives to the best and fullest we can as equals?
I realize there's a good chance I'm not the average man here, but this discussion is incredibly foreign to me.
I get the not feeling wanted part, but that's in large part due to the fact that I had major self-esteem issues growing up. It still sometimes affects me. For instance my girlfriend isn't really one to hand out compliments so I do sometimes question what it is she actually desires about me, and I know that talking to other dudes in my circle of friends this seems kind of common. We see all sorts of things in social media and whatnot about how guys should always tell their significant others how great they look, smart they are, etc., but that it's not important to boost a man's ego in the same way.
However, I do agree with you about not having a desire to be needed for something. I'd much rather feel wanted for who I am than needed for what I can do.
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I think this is again one of those things that is self-perpetuating between women and men. Men are told this is how a man should act if he wants to secure a woman. Women are then told that these are the types of men they should be trying to attract, and round and round we go.
I see the logic, but I think the problem originates with the mass-media, in general, not with "what women think they want", in particular. Writers create artistic content. Based on theirwriting, Hollywood machine makes movies and creates idolized images of men and women. Those images that become popular are being followed and repeated by the viewing public until they wear out. Then, new images are created. At present, the public is fed the images of Paul Rudd, Michael Cera and Jason Bateman, as the men-type most women should love, because these guys are so sensitive, so kind, so polite and... well, so womanly. I find it repulsive, personally, but I am not a woman...
I disagree with this attitude. I wasn't around when it was done "how it's always been done", so how exactly does it affect me? I was raised in a household where it wasn't even a question whether the sexes were equal. How things worked 25/50/100 years ago has no bearing on my life.
We're all people. Why must people have these needs? Human beings are always looking for meaning. Why can't we all just live our lives to the best and fullest we can as equals?
I realize there's a good chance I'm not the average man here, but this discussion is incredibly foreign to me.
I'm not sure whether I should say "lucky you" or "sounds like you end up in awkward situations a lot". Maybe both?
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Originally Posted by CaptainYooh
I see the logic, but I think the problem originates with the mass-media, in general, not with "what women think they want", in particular. Writers create artistic content. Based on theirwriting, Hollywood machine makes movies and creates idolized images of men and women. Those images that become popular are being followed and repeated by the viewing public until they wear out. Then, new images are created. At present, the public is fed the images of Paul Rudd, Michael Cera and Jason Bateman, as the men-type most women should love, because these guys are so sensitive, so kind, so polite and... well, so womanly. I find it repulsive, personally, but I am not a woman...
Mass-media is the way the culture is spread, not the culture itself. Well of course there's a feedback loop. But I think you get what I mean.
Mass-media is just people writing like they see the world or how they think other see the world or how they think others would like to see the world.
Mass-media is the way the culture is spread, not the culture itself. Well of course there's a feedback loop. But I think you get what I mean.
Mass-media is just people writing like they see the world or how they think other see the world or how they think others would like to see the world.
Remember the Nobel prize for market behavioural theory? It was based on a simple premise of people looking out of the window, seeing a lot of umbrellas and assuming that it's raining. Hollywood culture is the dominating force of our behaviour as a population, no matter how much each one of us hates certain aspects of it. In essence, a pimply writer fortunate enough to create a likeable character that scored well in focus group showings, gets his creation to affect the minds and perceptions of millions.
P.S. Just out of curiosity, are you really living in Helsinki?
I see the logic, but I think the problem originates with the mass-media, in general, not with "what women think they want", in particular. Writers create artistic content. Based on theirwriting, Hollywood machine makes movies and creates idolized images of men and women. Those images that become popular are being followed and repeated by the viewing public until they wear out.
I disagree and I also think you're underestimating the importance of early childhood conditioning via Disney, etc.
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Then, new images are created. At present, the public is fed the images of Paul Rudd, Michael Cera and Jason Bateman, as the men-type most women should love, because these guys are so sensitive, so kind, so polite and... well, so womanly. I find it repulsive, personally, but I am not a woman...
Again I disagree. These guys largely star in movies that cater to male fantasies, specifically the ones in which the hapless loser gets the extremely hot woman. In these movies they're still portrayed as less desirable on basic level than a more typically masculine persona. They only get the girl via intangibles and/or fortune.
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It's a spiral. The main idea though is "they will like what we produce and we will make adjustments after we hear feedback", not "we will produce what they like".
"Men Must Be Needed Because We Can't Be Wanted"
