Landlord/Renter Issue -Flood related

[Jbo]

Hey CP,

Some of you may remember that I have been having an issue with my place in Mission. I seem to be getting conflicting advice and wanted to see if anyone has any experience.

Backstory: I have rented in Mission for the last year and a half. Had fairly regular contact with the landlord always via e-mail. When the flood happened, we had zero contact from our landlord. We have now sent 3 e-mails, as this was the preferred contact choice, and he has not responded. We managed to get the name of the condo management company who have been providing updates on an irregular basis.

We just learned today, that best case scenario, we are looking at an additional 3 weeks of being displaced, with a more realistic time frame of Aug. 1.

As I have been told not to cancel cheques, the rent came out of the account on July 2nd. Now I have a number of issues:

1) In the updates from the condo board, it appears insurance is providing owners with some relief payments. However, our landlord is still taking rent. Is that not some sort of double dipping?

2) As per this post on reddit,
http://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/comm...er_in_mission/
the land lord needs to provide us with alternative housing. If he can not provide, he must either a) dissolve the contract or B) provide abadement of rent so we can find alternative living.

3) The silence strikes me as pretty deadbeat. We do have his number at the condo, but I have only been back into the unit once since this all began to grab some things. I will have to make a trip if that is the case, but is there not some obligation for him to contact us.

Any feedback is appriciated here.

[NotaCanucksFan]

wow touchy situation

[Byrns]

I would be calling that guy asap. Obligation or not, you need to get assertive if he's not getting back to you.

[photon]

http://www.landlordandtenant.org/liv...ge.aspx?id=602

Q.My apartment has flooded and the damage is going to take about two months to repair. Do I have to keep paying my landlord rent while the repairs are taking place?
A.Yes. If you stop paying rent you are at risk for being evicted for non-payment of rent. Even if you have to move out while the repairs are taking place you should still pay rent. It is possible for you to come to an alternative agreement with your landlord with regard to the payment of rent during this time. Any agreement should be in writing and clearly state what your intentions are in altering the terms of the original lease agreement and be signed by both of you. In the absence of such an agreement you should keep paying rent. You can also give notice to end your tenancy, if it is periodic, with the required amount of paid notice.

If you have tenant's insurance, your rent or extra living expenses may be covered by the insurance.

If the premises are completely destroyed by a disaster such as fire, it is likely that the lease agreement could be treated as frustrated (i.e., unable to be carried out) and the agreement will be over. However, if premises can be repaired so that the contract can continue, the contract will not be frustrated.

I don't see how it's "double dipping", what are they double dipping into? The relief payments from their insurance are presumably for repairing damages. Or even if the owners are committing fraud that doesn't mean your obligations are void.

The landlord doesn't need to provide alternative housing, either the agreement is valid and you have to let the owners fix it, or the lease is frustrated (i.e. the property is destroyed) in which case both parties don't have any obligations.

There's no obligation to be a good landlord, there's only the obligation to meet the requirements of the law. If you don't like how the landlord communicated then you always have the option of finding a new landlord.

Are you on a month by month lease? If so, give your one month notice (or should have done before July 1, doing now would be giving notice for end of August).

Call Service Alberta and see what they say.

Also saw this.

http://pub.cplea.ca/sites/default/fi...erTheFlood.pdf

[cDnStealth]

When I was displaced my tenant's insurance covered the cost of my hotel. I don't believe landlords are required to provide you with alternative housing. Have you not been able to speak with your landlord?

[93Hound]

With respect to the place where you rent.... the question is wether or not the residence is ok to live in. If you have been evacuated by civil law then you still have to pay rent. If the place is unlivable due to extensive damage then you can break the rental agreement and look for another place of residence.
Two different laws for different circumstances.
As for teh landlord double dipping. No he is not. he still has to pay the mortgage regardless of damage.
Hope this helps.

[photon]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

Have you not been able to speak with your landlord?

I think that's part of the problem.

Mind you he might be in the dark too, I'm a condo owner and my tenant got way more communication than I the owner did, I never heard anything, never got calls returned, found out 3rd hand of an email list but couldn't even email to ask to be added since the email box was full.. my tenant just forwarded me all the emails he's been getting

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by photon

http://www.landlordandtenant.org/liv...ge.aspx?id=602



I don't see how it's "double dipping", what are they double dipping into? The relief payments from their insurance are presumably for repairing damages. Or even if the owners are committing fraud that doesn't mean your obligations are void.

The landlord doesn't need to provide alternative housing, either the agreement is valid and you have to let the owners fix it, or the lease is frustrated (i.e. the property is destroyed) in which case both parties don't have any obligations.

There's no obligation to be a good landlord, there's only the obligation to meet the requirements of the law. If you don't like how the landlord communicated then you always have the option of finding a new landlord.

Are you on a month by month lease? If so, give your one month notice (or should have done before July 1, doing now would be giving notice for end of August).

Call Service Alberta and see what they say.

Also saw this.

http://pub.cplea.ca/sites/default/fi...erTheFlood.pdf

To me, the double dipping is taking place in that Owners are getting an additional expense coverage for owners via the condos plan, and at the same time collecting rent.

We are not month to month, but about 1/4 into our current lease that goes to March. I have in no way defaulted on my obligation, as my rent payment was taken on time. However, he has failed to meet providing a minimum housing standard (his fault or not) if we are out for 2 months out of a 12 month lease, how is that not a situation where a renter has rights? This isn't directed at you, but more a system where the landlord can just get away with this.

My next plan will likely be an abadment of rent request as per the second link and if still nothing push forward with possible move-out.

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

When I was displaced my tenant's insurance covered the cost of my hotel. I don't believe landlords are required to provide you with alternative housing. Have you not been able to speak with your landlord?

Nothing. Zero. He managed to answer his e-mail no problem before. I will have to go down there to find the lease with his contact information.

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by photon

I think that's part of the problem.

Mind you he might be in the dark too, I'm a condo owner and my tenant got way more communication than I the owner did, I never heard anything, never got calls returned, found out 3rd hand of an email list but couldn't even email to ask to be added since the email box was full.. my tenant just forwarded me all the emails he's been getting

Most tenants can not request information from the condo management company. You must be an owner. (I was one at my previous place)

In this case, we have been added to the update and progress list at our request.

[cDnStealth]

Originally Posted by J-bo09

Nothing. Zero. He managed to answer his e-mail no problem before. I will have to go down there to find the lease with his contact information.

That's pretty pathetic IMO. I know in my situation I was able to get in touch with my landlord a day after I was displaced (on a Saturday no less). It's been a week now and I think the least they could do is return an email.

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

That's pretty pathetic IMO. I know in my situation I was able to get in touch with my landlord a day after I was displaced (on a Saturday no less). It's been a week now and I think the least they could do is return an email.

The whole situation is frustrating. But I appriciate everyone's advice. we are at 15 days displaced now, so been a bit unreal.

[Hockeyguy15]

What evidence do you have that the condos insurance is paying him 'expense coverage' that is to be used for temporary lodging? I can't see insurance throwing money away to cover people staying somewhere else, if anything I would think they would require them to submit their actual lodging expense after it was all said and done and then insurance would reimburse them.

Do you not qualify for the prepaid debit card from the government? (Honest question since I don't really know how those work).

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

What evidence do you have that the condos insurance is paying him 'expense coverage' that is to be used for temporary lodging? I can't see insurance throwing money away to cover people staying somewhere else, if anything I would think they would require them to submit their actual lodging expense after it was all said and done and then insurance would reimburse them.

Do you not qualify for the prepaid debit card from the government? (Honest question since I don't really know how those work).

My evidence is that in the condo update there was a paragraph that read "Additional Living Expense - if you have not spoken to **** or ***** about this coverage for owners, please contact us. This is to cover additional living expenses through the coorperators condo insurance that is available to OWNERS only"

As for the card, yes we got one, which has covered our expenses to this point (2 weeks) but there really is not much preventing abuse of the program. In our asssessment, they didn't even look at our documents. In fact, some people were just going in and signing declerations and walking out. I think we will see major abuses reported of this program.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by J-bo09

My evidence is that in the condo update there was a paragraph that read "Additional Living Expense - if you have not spoken to **** or ***** about this coverage for owners, please contact us. This is to cover additional living expenses through the coorperators condo insurance that is available to OWNERS only"

As for the card, yes we got one, which has covered our expenses to this point (2 weeks) but there really is not much preventing abuse of the program. In our asssessment, they didn't even look at our documents. In fact, some people were just going in and signing declerations and walking out. I think we will see major abuses reported of this program.

But what proof do you have that he has actually gotten any money for living expenses he doesn't have.

Like I said, I assume he needs some sort of documentation that he actually has extra living costs.

[photon]

Originally Posted by J-bo09

To me, the double dipping is taking place in that Owners are getting an additional expense coverage for owners via the condos plan, and at the same time collecting rent.

What does "additional expense coverage" mean? If he has commercial insurance on a building that pays for flood damage, that's not double dipping. The insurance pays for repairs and other flood related expenses, your rent pays for the mortgage he still has to pay.

Originally Posted by J-bo09

We are not month to month, but about 1/4 into our current lease that goes to March. I have in no way defaulted on my obligation, as my rent payment was taken on time.

Understood, didn't mean to imply you have.

Originally Posted by J-bo09

However, he has failed to meet providing a minimum housing standard (his fault or not) if we are out for 2 months out of a 12 month lease, how is that not a situation where a renter has rights?

He hasn't failed anything, a flood made the place uninhabitable. Now if he's unwilling to do what needs to be done to make it habitable again in a reasonable amount of time (reasonable in terms of what's possible, not in terms of compared to if the flood had never happened), then you probably have reasonable grounds to get the contract declared frustrated.

If a tenant could just walk away or stop paying their rent for any circumstance beyond everyone's control that's unfair to the landlord. Flip the situation around, if the landlord is out rent for 2 months out of a 12 month lease, how is that not a situation where a landlord has rights?

Meeting a minimum housing standard is about how a landlord is to maintain a property (i.e if it grows mold because they neglected to replace bathroom fans), not that a landlord is responsible for any and all circumstances beyond your and their control.

Originally Posted by J-bo09

This isn't directed at you, but more a system where the landlord can just get away with this.

He's not "getting away" with anything. Either he's repairing the place, in which case you just have to wait until it is fixed (which isn't great but is the most reasonable for both parties IMO), or he's not and you can have the contract declared frustrated and walk away.

Originally Posted by J-bo09

My next plan will likely be an abadment of rent request as per the second link and if still nothing push forward with possible move-out.

The dispute resolution service seems to be slanted towards tenants in my experience and understanding (I know of one landlord that had tenants destroy new carpet in six months and they declared that "normal wear") so you might get some traction there.

[photon]

Originally Posted by J-bo09

My evidence is that in the condo update there was a paragraph that read "Additional Living Expense - if you have not spoken to **** or ***** about this coverage for owners, please contact us. This is to cover additional living expenses through the coorperators condo insurance that is available to OWNERS only"

Ah ok, yeah if the owners are collecting something that is intended for living expenses for residents of the condo from the condo corp's building insurance, and he's not a resident of the condo (you are), then yeah that is definitely not cool.

I don't know if he could though, I would assume the insurance would want some kind of documentation to go along with claims (i.e. receipts).. and either your landlord doesn't provide them and doesn't get money, or he does provide fake ones and that's fraud... Or I guess the insurance might just pay out a lump sum but that seems kind of unlikely.

EDIT: Still don't know if that violates any law though, unless your rental agreement says he'll pay for displacement I don't think he'd be legally obligated.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by J-bo09

The whole situation is frustrating. But I appriciate everyone's advice. we are at 15 days displaced now, so been a bit unreal.

Do you have any tenants insurance of your own?

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Do you have any tenants insurance of your own?

I do for contents. Would have to go through the policy, but last thing I want is a month of rent and then have the premiums jacked up.

[ken0042]

What happens in the event of a fire? Let's say a fire caused by lightning burns the place he is renting to the ground. That would immediately end the lease; as the item he is renting no longer exists.

Wouldn't the fact that it's now a case of the place he is renting for habitation is no longer suitable for habitation be the same idea?