Plumbing Issue in Condo - Advice Needed

[Peanut]

My condo board contacted me today with the great news that apparently my unit is leaking into the common area. They sent a plumber, who met with my tenants, and the plumber determined it's apparently a membrane issue in my shower, not a piping issue.

So my questions for anyone with similar experience and/or condo knowledge:
1. Do I get my own plumber in to confirm what the issue is? (I'm thinking yes)
2. Is a membrane issue my problem or the condo board's problem? My extremely general understanding of condo issues is that everything from the paint in, is mine and my cost to repair/upgrade. Membrane obviously falls "outside" the paint... But the property manager definitely made it sound like it's my issue to deal with.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Peanut

My condo board contacted me today with the great news that apparently my unit is leaking into the common area. They sent a plumber, who met with my tenants, and the plumber determined it's apparently a membrane issue in my shower, not a piping issue.

So my questions for anyone with similar experience and/or condo knowledge:
1. Do I get my own plumber in to confirm what the issue is? (I'm thinking yes)
2. Is a membrane issue my problem or the condo board's problem? My extremely general understanding of condo issues is that everything from the paint in, is mine and my cost to repair/upgrade. Membrane obviously falls "outside" the paint... But the property manager definitely made it sound like it's my issue to deal with.

Not to be rude, but did you read your bylaws? It will say in the bylaws. In my experience property managers will push any/everything back against the unit owners.

[CaptainCrunch]

I thought a shower membrane and plumbing inside the unit would belong to you and is your responsibility. I would get my own plumber, I never trusted the one that the condo recommended (somebodies cousin, brother, father)

Is there damage to the common area?

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Not to be rude, but did you read your bylaws? It will say in the bylaws. In my experience property managers will push any/everything back against the unit owners.

It's not rude. I don't have a copy of the bylaws, and i haven't read them. When i bought the condo i had the documents "professionally" reviewed, but never actually got the docs myself. I'm also away on vacation and dealing with this remotely and trying to get a sense of how much I'm on the hook for. And I want to deal with it quickly for my tenants because it's inconvenient obviously.

So step 1. Get bylaw documents.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I thought a shower membrane and plumbing inside the unit would belong to you and is your responsibility. I would get my own plumber, I never trusted the one that the condo recommended (somebodies cousin, brother, father)

Is there damage to the common area?

I'm not sure. I asked about damage to the common area and the answer was "as long as they don't keep using the shower, there won't be any more damage".

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Peanut

It's not rude. I don't have a copy of the bylaws, and i haven't read them. When i bought the condo i had the documents "professionally" reviewed, but never actually got the docs myself. I'm also away on vacation and dealing with this remotely and trying to get a sense of how much I'm on the hook for. And I want to deal with it quickly for my tenants because it's inconvenient obviously.

So step 1. Get bylaw documents.

Yep, the manager should give them to you, if not contact the board president.

[Kjesse]

The condo building as a whole has insurance, for which you pay the premiums through your condo fees. As a unitholder you should also have separate insurance. If you do, call your insurer and let them take care of it. They'll send someone to check as to what you're being told about the cause of the damage.

If you don't, and since you didn't obtain any documents relating to your investment, tell the condo board you expect the policy you pay for as part of the condo fees to cover any damage to the common area.

Since you don't have any of the important documents relating to your presumably expensive purchase, and you're asking about something that is a legal issue depending on those documents, on a message board of all places, the best you can do is take a position and see what happens. At the same time, yes get your own plumber to provide a separate opinion.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Yep, the manager should give them to you, if not contact the board president.

The manager will almost certainly sell them to you as opposed to give them to you. The vast majority of management contracts allow them to charge for this.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Delgar

The condo building as a whole has insurance, for which you pay the premiums through your condo fees. As a unitholder you should also have separate insurance. If you do, call your insurer and let them take care of it. They'll send someone to check as to what you're being told about the cause of the damage.

If you don't, and since you didn't obtain any documents relating to your investment, tell the condo board you expect the policy you pay for as part of the condo fees to cover any damage to the common area.

Since you don't have any of the important documents relating to your presumably expensive purchase, and you're asking about something that is a legal issue depending on those documents, on a message board of all places, the best you can do is take a position and see what happens. At the same time, yes get your own plumber to provide a separate opinion.

To add to this, normally the way it works is that the condo will be insured beyond x amount of dollars (usually $10-20k in damage), but you are responsible for the first x amount of damage.

You should have your own insurance to cover that amount.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by Delgar

The condo building as a whole has insurance, for which you pay the premiums through your condo fees. As a unitholder you should also have separate insurance. If you do, call your insurer and let them take care of it. They'll send someone to check as to what you're being told about the cause of the damage.

If you don't, and since you didn't obtain any documents relating to your investment, tell the condo board you expect the policy you pay for as part of the condo fees to cover any damage to the common area.

Since you don't have any of the important documents relating to your presumably expensive purchase, and you're asking about something that is a legal issue depending on those documents, on a message board of all places, the best you can do is take a position and see what happens. At the same time, yes get your own plumber to provide a separate opinion.

I was mostly just wondering if this was a standard type of issue, and my impression is that there have been lots of previous threads regarding both condo and legal issues on this message board, of all places. I need to get the documents but have had no problems until now, so wasn't too worried about it until now. i'm also on vacation so won't readily have access to them for another week.

I do have insurance. I appreciate a bunch of your suggestions despite the slightly condescending tone. So... Thank you?!

[I-Hate-Hulse]

What kind of shower is it? Is it one of those vinyl stalls, just a vinyl pan, or is it 100% tile shower? If it's vinyl, and the seams / groutlines are visually decent, I'm going to say that the chance it's a membrane issue are smaller.

Depending on your bylaws, this could be a bit of a grey area. Pipes are typically the Board's responsibility, but membrane is definately grey - I think it's the owner's responsibility unfortunately

Water is one of the most insidious things in a condo. Rarely does it go in a straight path, especially in a concrete building. Water came into my unit - turns out it was a bad shower diverter 2 floors up and 1/2 a floor to the north.Geniuses in that unit would hang a bucket from the pull knob to fill it and somehow caused it to break.

Some exploratory wall opening is probably going to be needed to solve this. I would make sure you and someone from the Mangement Corp are there when they do. Doesn't hurt to video it either.

[RW99]

Condo water damage is never fun. The way it should go that the condo corporation is responsible to do the repair work (other than any improvement or betterments you made to the unit). The insurance certificate given to you when you bought the unit would determine if they pay for it up front or it goes through the corporation's insurance.

Then depending on the by-laws, that will determine if they can assess you in full, up to their insurance deductible, or not at all (doubtful). From there you normally can make a claim to your own insurance, minus your deductible. However if the cause is deterioration, you will most likely not have insurance coverage.

But condo water losses rarely go as they should, so best of luck to you. Hopefully they can get the condo act updated soon, soo many issues between boards, unit owners, insurance.

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by Peanut

I was mostly just wondering if this was a standard type of issue, and my impression is that there have been lots of previous threads regarding both condo and legal issues on this message board, of all places. I need to get the documents but have had no problems until now, so wasn't too worried about it until now. i'm also on vacation so won't readily have access to them for another week.

I do have insurance. I appreciate a bunch of your suggestions despite the slightly condescending tone. So... Thank you?!

Not condescending, my apologies But, don't blame the document company for the fact you didn't get them, always blame yourself for not making sure you got them

[Jbo]

I'm selling my condo right now and was able to get all the docs online from the condo management company (some are a fee)the management company or board have to be able to provide.

In my experience you are likely on the hook here. Doesn't hurt to get a second opinion, but the onus will be on you to prove it was not your fault.

Good luck!

[killer_carlson]

Pull a copy of your condo plan and check your unit boundary. $10.00 from land titles. Your answer is there.

[EVERLAST]

The most they will have you pay through Condo board insurance is the deductible.

Thats a part of the condo fees and that should be in the agreement .....Whoever reviewed the documents for you should know all the ins and outs regardless

[CaptainYooh]

a) Membrane in your shower is your property, not a common property, regardless of where the unit property lines are drawn on the condo plan in your particular condominium building. There are a couple of ways they could vary but these variations are irrelevant to your case. It is your property all the way to concrete floor (in case of a concrete building) or all the way to the joist (in case of a wood-frame building).

b) CondoCorp has the right to enter and make a repair into your private property if it causes damage to the common property. It takes some enforcement and legalities but they can do it if you don't address it in time.

c) My suggestion, don't waste time at this point, and get your own workers to do this (you might need more than a plumber though to take the insert out and install it back - think of a drywaller and painter as well).

d) If the leak caused damage to the common property, you will be responsible for the cost of repairing it. your property management company will take care of this, most likely and issue a bill.

e) Damage to the membrane is a latent defect (the one you could not have seen at the time of occupancy), so you might have a claim against the builder, provided that you bought it new from the builder, of course. If you bought on MLS from a previous owner and the unit is more than 5 years old, (when most structural condo warranties expire), you are on your own.

Hope it helps.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

a) Membrane in your shower is your property, not a common property, regardless of where the unit property lines are drawn on the condo plan in your particular condominium building. There are a couple of ways they could vary but these variations are irrelevant to your case. It is your property all the way to concrete floor (in case of a concrete building) or all the way to the joist (in case of a wood-frame building).

How are you so certain?

[CaptainYooh]

I know.

P.S. Didn't mean for it to sound arrogant. It has been a normal practice to have common walls and floors in conventional condominium apartment buildings designated as common property. Property lines are usually drawn to separate the "finish" from the "structure" and, under normal circumstances, the floor structure ends at either subfloor level or top of a joist in a wood-frame building (I assume this is the wood-frame building is being discussed here). The other way of doing it is to draw the property line in the middle of the common wall or floor, which makes all parts of it private. In either case, shower waterproofing membrane is installed above the subfloor and is part of the unit. Waterproofing membranes are common property in the roofing and parkade structures.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I know.

Are you her husband, her property manager, god?


Not to be rude, but if you are providing advice, as a certainty, a qualifier might be nice.