Communism??

[kipperfan]

With all the interesting polictical debate going on, on here for the past couple of days, I figured Id ask all you guys about your views on Communism. Bush still refers to it as a force of evil, is he right?

[Table 5]

the realistic outcomes of communism should be dead obvious by now. to any logical human being, there really should be no argument here.

[Flame Of Liberty]

My take on communism, and many communist ideas still present in today`s `democracies` is here:

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/index.p...topic=920&st=0

couple of last posts on the 1st page plus some more on second (hopefully Cowboy adds his soon

Shortly - communism is not gone, its still present virtually everywhere, it only has fancier clothes.

And yeah it is evil!

[FlamesAddiction]

Communism is simply not culturally acceptable to the majority of westerners. The idea of a dictatorship does does not blend easily with our values.

I don't think it's evil though. Under certain circumstances, it may even be necessary or desirable to some people. Not everyone shares our values. Someone calling something evil because they don't agree with it or understand it, is a sign of ignorance.

[icarus]

Communism, as envisioned by Marx, has never existed. The whole 'withering away of the state' thing has never come to fruition. Probably because it is human nature to hold onto power whenever possible - regardless of whether you're a factory owner or a supposed representative of the masses.

[Table 5]

communism will never work because it fails to take into a small but vital detail of the account the human condition: people will always seek to better their own position.
Whether its on a small scale of getting the bigger slice of pizza, or of a big one concerning dictatorial power, we always seek to be better than another. this inate "greed" will always be a part of us, and is what drives us inside.....it does both good and bad, but it will always be there. unless communists find a way to dispose of this part of human nature, they are doomed.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by icarus@Aug 21 2004, 08:00 PM
Communism, as envisioned by Marx, has never existed. The whole 'withering away of the state' thing has never come to fruition. Probably because it is human nature to hold onto power whenever possible - regardless of whether you're a factory owner or a supposed representative of the masses.

Marx even suggested that the world was not ready for a communist revolution. There has to be historical capitalism before communism could work under his theory. Most western societies have avoided historical capitalism by instituting different form of socialism, anti-monopoly laws, and a degree of eqalitarianism.

[troutman]

True communism has never been attempted. Probably an impossible ideal as it is contrary to human nature.

[kipperfan]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Aug 21 2004, 07:31 PM
Someone calling something evil because they don't agree with it or understand it, is a sign of ignorance.

I agree Flames Addiction.

Troutman...dont you think its been attempted, just never close to being achieved??

When creating this thread I was thinking about how Bush still uses the term Communism often in speeches and address to public. Communism, though only existing in a few places in the world today, is still being stamped as evil by Bush and others too im sure. I not judging Bush or others for this, I would just like to know where these feelings come from?? Are they nothing more than feelings of deep seeded resentment due to past conflict?? Or is it deeper than that?

Personally I understand that Communism, in the true marxist form could never be achieved, its not humanly possible. On the other hand there are a lot of valuble ideas that lie under the communist banner.

Now I know I WILL get ripped for this but............................I cant resist.
I think that Fidel Castro has done a amazing job of putting marx's ideas to practise, maybe as good a job as anyone could do with the absolute that Castro holds. No doubt the Cuban poltical system has many flaws, and Castro has overextended his power in some areas, but he has also created good lives for his citizens, esspecially when compared to other countries in the region. Haiti, Dominican Republic, large parts of Mexico and countless other latin american countries are living in poverty, while cubans are all guarnteed work, food and shelter. The average Cuban life span is only 5 years(in males) less than canadians, thats insane for a 3rd world country. Cubans arent starving in the street and they arent living in poverty.

Yeah you can hate on Cuba, and yeah people cant leave, and yeah fidel DOES have too much power but are Cubans lives worse of then that of Haitians or Mexicans? Are they living lesser lives because they live under a communist system?

Like an above poster said, Communism is not acceptable to the values and beliefs of 99% of westerners, becasue of our upbringing and societal teachings.

But in Latin America or in Africa is a curbed communist gov't, worse than a tryanical "democracy", or a facist state? I dont think so. My personal view is that though not perfect at all, communism, if applied by true socialists, can be the lesser of two evils.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Can you explain why so many Cubans have left for or attempted to leave for the US?

It's not nearly as rosy a life as you make it out to be.

Communism, as it has been implemented on this planet, is inherently oppressive. Oppression could very easily be considered evil.

[octothorp]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Aug 21 2004, 03:07 PM
Can you explain why so many Cubans have left for or attempted to leave for the US?

It's not nearly as rosy a life as you make it out to be.

Communism, as it has been implemented on this planet, is inherently oppressive. Oppression could very easily be considered evil.

Problem with the first argument is that a tremendous number of Mexicans have attempted to leave for the US as well. The illegal immigration in cuba has much more to do with general economic disparity between the US and latin america, as opposed to political differences. Are there a large number of Cubans attempting to leave their country for Mexico or other latin-american democracies or dictatorships? I don't know, but I suspect there aren't a lot.

[Displaced Flames fan]

And does that economic disparity have anything to do with lack of communism in the US political system? Something....yes.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Go to the former USSR and tell them, the people who suffered under years of persiquition that communism is not evil. Communism in practice and communism in theory are also two different things, with the theory being perfect but at the same time very and I mean very flawed.

Go to Poland a nation which had it's civilian population enslaved, the Ukraine where their food was taken by force resulting in them being forced to eat tree bark in order to survive (and many of them didn't), ask the people in Czechoslovakia who were killed for rising up hoping for a force by the Russian/Soviet Army, ask the people who were sent to the Goulags (many of them dying), ask the people who were killed when Hungary tried to break away, ask the people who were forced to live in absolute squalor if communism is a good thing. They would laugh in your face.

Communism in essance makes you a slave to a state, and allows you to not even exist, for as Duddy Kravitz's grandfather would say, a man without land is nobody. And in a communist state in practice there isn't any land that one owns.

[HelloHockeyFans]

What about China, one of the fastest growing economies in the world?

[FlamesAddiction]

China is tricky though. From my understanding, it's governed more like an empire than a modern nation state. Some areas of the country are strict communist, totalitarian, and have their wealth strictly controlled. Other parts of the country enjoy more capitalistic freedom (relatively speaking).

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Aug 21 2004, 11:39 PM
Go to the former USSR and tell them, the people who suffered under years of persiquition that communism is not evil. Communism in practice and communism in theory are also two different things, with the theory being perfect but at the same time very and I mean very flawed.

Go to Poland a nation which had it's civilian population enslaved, the Ukraine where their food was taken by force resulting in them being forced to eat tree bark in order to survive (and many of them didn't), ask the people in Czechoslovakia who were killed for rising up hoping for a force by the Russian/Soviet Army, ask the people who were sent to the Goulags (many of them dying), ask the people who were killed when Hungary tried to break away, ask the people who were forced to live in absolute squalor if communism is a good thing. They would laugh in your face.

Communism in essance makes you a slave to a state, and allows you to not even exist, for as Duddy Kravitz's grandfather would say, a man without land is nobody. And in a communist state in practice there isn't any land that one owns.

That is not true.

Poland for example, re-elected communists to government after having democracy, as did several former "ex-communist" countries (Ukraine, Croatia, Bulgaria, Kazahkstan, and even Russia).

It's actually typical in many European countries to move back and forth like that.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by HelloHockeyFans@Aug 21 2004, 11:44 PM
What about China, one of the fastest growing economies in the world?

When they move towards a more capitalist economic ideals what happens, their economy takes off. But when looking at whether something is evil or not (evil is a very strong word) one must look at the human cost and to be frank, China is the model of human rights. Just because we don't hear of them doesn't mean they don't exist/

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Aug 21 2004, 11:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Aug 21 2004, 11:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mean Mr. Mustard@Aug 21 2004, 11:39 PM
Go to the former USSR and tell them, the people who suffered under years of persiquition that communism is not evil. Communism in practice and communism in theory are also two different things, with the theory being perfect but at the same time very and I mean very flawed.

Go to Poland a nation which had it's civilian population enslaved, the Ukraine where their food was taken by force resulting in them being forced to eat tree bark in order to survive (and many of them didn't), ask the people in Czechoslovakia who were killed for rising up hoping for a force by the Russian/Soviet Army, ask the people who were sent to the Goulags (many of them dying), ask the people who were killed when Hungary tried to break away, ask the people who were forced to live in absolute squalor if communism is a good thing. They would laugh in your face.

Communism in essance makes you a slave to a state, and allows you to not even exist, for as Duddy Kravitz's grandfather would say, a man without land is nobody. And in a communist state in practice there isn't any land that one owns.

That is not true.

Poland for example, re-elected communists to government after having democracy, as did several former "ex-communist" countries (Ukraine, Croatia, Bulgaria, Kazahkstan, and even Russia).

It's actually typical in many European countries to move back and forth like that. [/b][/quote]
The fact that they were given a choice to elect a government with left wing ideals should speak volumes to the fact that communism was a bad thing. Seriously these people now have a voice where under communist rule they didn't, there is no denying that fact.

What isn't true about what I stated, did the Ukraine not have their food taken by the state for the greater good? Did people not get sent to the Goulags to die/be slaved and die? Did the USSR not crush a rebellion in Czechoslovakia? Did they not do the same in Hungary? Did the people of Poland not suffer horribly? What have I stated that wasn't a fact, please enlighten me?

[FlamesAddiction]

It's not true that if you went to those countries, that everyone would say communism is evil. Obviously, if it is still popular enough to have large representation in their governments, there is a significant portion of the population who do not think it is evil.

My mother was an immigrant from Poland, and my father from Croatia, so don't think I don't understand that there were bad things that happened, but much of what you know is western propaganda as well. One of my best friends is from Poland and even he admits that communism was not as bad as people here made it out to be.

I also have a friend who is Ukrainian and tells me about how many farmers in the Ukraine are now living in poverty since the country entered the free market world.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Aug 21 2004, 11:58 PM
What isn't true about what I stated, did the Ukraine not have their food taken by the state for the greater good? Did people not get sent to the Goulags to die/be slaved and die? Did the USSR not crush a rebellion in Czechoslovakia? Did they not do the same in Hungary? Did the people of Poland not suffer horribly? What have I stated that wasn't a fact, please enlighten me?

See, you're not even talking about communism directly. You are talking about what certain governments did, and those governments happen to be communist.

There are numerous non-communist and capitalist countries that oppress their people as well. Hell, Iraq under Saddam Hussein was capitalist.