2005 2nd Round Draft Pick (Kiprusoff)

[powderjunkie]

Since the texting poll on the flames broadcast was sooooooo difficult tonight (who did the 2nd round pick traded for Kipper turn out to be: Ovy, Thornton, The Sedins or Vlasic (as someone pointed out in the GTT, that question is pretty much insulting)), I had to do google the answer...I was curious who we might have ended up with if we held the pick, so I did google it, and was surprised by the number of quality players that came out of rounds 2-7 that year.

I know it has been discussed before that without that trade for Kipper, the Flames would probably be as embarassing as the Oilers/Leafs, and given our draft record and development I would agree, but it does seem that there were a whole bunch of impact players from the 2nd round on in the 05 draft:

33. James Neal
35. Vlasic
41. Pavelec
42. Abdelkader
44. Stastny
51. Mason Raymond
62. Kris Letang
72. Jon Quick
85. Ben Bishop (quality TBD)
105. Yandle
108. Hjalmarsson
132. Darren Helm
190. d'Agostini
200. Sergei Kostitsyn
230. Hornqvist

Also a few other guys in there that haven't been totally awful like Latendresse, Mcquaid, Franson, Butler, Blair Jones, Tom Pyatt, Gerbe, Greening, Stralman, and I'm sure a few others I missed.

I know there are always some later round gems and everyday NHLers, but Letang, Quick, Stastny, and Neal seem like an especially good haul. Are there any other drafts compare with this one in terms of late round quality and quantity?

Seeing as we selected Pelech late in the 1st round (ahead of Niskanen and Downie), Gord Baldwin (2 picks ahead of Quick), then Dan Ryder and a bunch of other schlubs afterwards it seems especially depressing from a Flames standpoint.

[CalgaryFan1988]

For the record, Dan Ryder was a really good player. He suffers/suffered from mental illness, which is pretty difficult to foresee when drafting a player.

[Stormchaser]

Had we not made this trade, there was no way we would have turned the corner into the playoffs with Turek in net that year. Every time he went to save a shot it made me nervous....heck I think it made him nervous.

[Fischy13]

I wonder if its more our development failing than our drafting team picking poorly. You can't miss that many times can you? Seems the Flames try and turn every pick into a 3rd or 4th line defensive player. Isnt a sutter still head of development? I wonder how much of that is on them instead of the scouts.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Fischy13

I wonder if its more our development failing than our drafting team picking poorly. You can't miss that many times can you? Seems the Flames try and turn every pick into a 3rd or 4th line defensive player. Isnt a sutter still head of development? I wonder how much of that is on them instead of the scouts.

This team hasn't drafted well in 20 years. It's a lot bigger than Sutter.

[FAN]

For what it's worth, I think if you take team needs out of the equation, I think most GMs would trade every one of those guys on that list straight up for an in his prime Kipper. The Flames got years of great service from Kipper.

[Canada 02]

In hindsight, the way Sutter drafted, he was much better off trading away picks for real players

[Stay Golden]

Outstanding first game back for Kipper. The Flames will resign him and he will retire a Flame. I honestly do not see the Management wanting to trade Kipper and downgrade at this position.
They won't even consider the chance of rolling the dice trading Kipper until they know what Ramo really can provide.
MacDonald is a nice backup but being only a few years younger than Kipper he is not the answer as a full time starter.
Kipper will get 90% of the remaining starts.

Gotta love the rivets for eyes in the skull on Kippers mask!

[dammage79]

In the OP's list there isn't one player I would have taken over Kipper. Neal would have been nice but it isnt every day a Kipper comes along into your organization by trade or drafting.

[Imported_Aussie]

Originally Posted by dammage79

In the OP's list there isn't one player I would have taken over Kipper. Neal would have been nice but it isnt every day a Kipper comes along into your organization by trade or drafting.

I agree, it is just a shame that the Flames went off the board after Pelech when there was so much behind him that could have contributed to the team. But we could talk all day about bad drafting by the Flames and conspiracy theories as to why Tod Button is still employed by this organization in light of this

[saillias]

I can say with confidence that the Flames would have wasted that pick. Hell may as well have traded the 1st for all the good it did us.

[drewtastic]

Originally Posted by Fischy13

I wonder if its more our development failing than our drafting team picking poorly. You can't miss that many times can you? Seems the Flames try and turn every pick into a 3rd or 4th line defensive player. Isnt a sutter still head of development? I wonder how much of that is on them instead of the scouts.

I think you ask a fair question. I don't know to what extent the pendulum swings one way or the other, but I think that you are correct to raise this issue.

I recall the tenure of Brian Sutter, when it just seemed like the organization's purpose was to create 22 Sutter-like players. There has to be some balance between trying to turn players into what you need and allowing players' individual abilities to help the team. Not everyone needs to be a "solid, two-way player"...sometimes, it's okay to let skill players be skill players.

[boggledepot]

I think I would take Kipper over all but two on that list. Heck, I think I would take Kipper over Letang and Quick. Considering the the time takes for players to develop, almost ten years removed from the trade and still benefiting, the Kipper trade--in my books--goes down as a steal.

Thats my opinion, but if you say today, "we could have had James Neal", sure in hindsight it might not seem like a steal. But if you said ten years ago, "but we could have James Neal", at the time everybody would ask: who? And without a second thought take the Vezina winning goaltender, and the subsequent years of giving the Flames a chance to win every night.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Imported_Aussie

I agree, it is just a shame that the Flames went off the board after Pelech when there was so much behind him that could have contributed to the team. But we could talk all day about bad drafting by the Flames and conspiracy theories as to why Tod Button is still employed by this organization in light of this

The idea behind the Pelech selection was to get that big bruising d-man that was oh so important in the pre-louckout era. They eventually got it in Phaneuf.

I'm in the camp that the Flames drafting, especially Sutter's, really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. The Flames rarely pick in the top 10. Late 1st and 2nd round picks just don't have that great of a chance of becomming full time NHLers, let alone impact players.

OP has made a list of players chosen between 30 and 230 who've become good players. There are 200+ players in that range who were busts.

The 2005 draft was very deep, but the Flames also picked 25th. We were going for a d-man and picked a bust. But we weren't the only ones. Within that range you had several other d-men busts too: Lashoff (at 22), Mihalek (at 30), Mikkelson (at 31), Chorney (at 36), Jackson (at 37), Sauer (at 40), etc...

Pelech wasn't an example of bad drafting. He was an example of how little a late 1st or 2nd round pick, in general, should be valued. Using hindsight to say the Flames should have drafted Vlassic is pretty ridiculous. He's the only full time NHLer of 10 or so d-men that were chosen in that range.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by dammage79

In the OP's list there isn't one player I would have taken over Kipper. Neal would have been nice but it isnt every day a Kipper comes along into your organization by trade or drafting.

Quick?

Although who knows with the way the Flames seem to develope players, Berneir would be the ellite Stanley cup winning goaltender, and Quick would have been a career AHLer, Keetley & Irving both look good at one time.

[North East Goon]

I dont know Vlasic makes one hell of a tasty pickle.

[lazypucker]

Given the Flames' ability/luck for drafting, they will never get the Jonathan Quick or Hjalmarsson. Even if they did, the prospects will be misused by the Sutters anyways.

[blankall]

I should also add, Kipper for a 2nd was an absolutely steal, and it's not a debate. That trade probably cost the Sharks 2 or more Stanley Cups. Kipper would have pulled the Sharks through several of those 2nd and 3rd round exists they've had over the last decade.

[trackercowe]

People underrating Letang again. Probably the front-runner for the Norris this year with Karlsson out. I'd say he's more valuable to the Penguins than even Neal is.

[Huntingwhale]

I woudn't have traded any of those players for a prime Kipper.

Sure Quick won the Conn Smyth last year. But he didn't carry his team on his back during that run, the Kings as a whole were a powerhouse. And he is struggling this season. Let's see him put together a couple elite seasons in a row before we put him ahead of Kipper.

Neal would be nice, but he has scored at a ppg clip once.

None of those players have the same impact that Kipper does. We got an elite franchise goalie for a 2nd round pick. Praise Jesus. Even if I had that list of players in front of me and the power to see in the future, I take Kipper 100% of the time. No one on that list even comes close to having the ability to carry their team like our goalie does.

I honestly don't care what type of return Kipper could get us. He belongs here and here only. Watching him put on a goaltending clinic like last night is one of the reasons I enjoy watching the Flames. It will be a sad day when he retires. But I hope its as a Flame and I hope he re-signs another contract when his deal is done, even if its in a reduced role with Ramo on board.