Rating the Management teams --- Value for $$$

[ricardodw]

Whenever the Flames play Phoenix and you look at the lineups and contracts it is amazing that the game is played and that the 2pts are not just awarded to the Flames..... The Flames spend around 10M more a year (2 - 5M players or 3 3M players)

Would it make sense to go and raid the whole Phoenix hockey operations and management team (GM coaches, scouts) rather than say spending the money to re-sign Iginla? (or Nashville or St.L. or ....)

In 2011-12 here is the list of the teams that got best value for their money..... Pts in the year end standings divided into salary spent.

team >> $$$ spent >> year end standings pts>> $ / pt

Nashville Predators#» 52,188,068 » 104 » 501,808
St. Louis Blues#» 54,882,994 » 109 » 503,514
Dallas Stars#» 49,857,505 » 89 » 560,197
Colorado Avalanche#» 49,401,072 » 88 » 561,376
Ottawa Senators#» 51,653,379 » 92 » 561,450
Phoenix Coyotes#» 55,059,462 » 97 » 567,623
New York Rangers#» 61,948,035 » 109 » 568,331
Detroit Red Wings#» 59,298,581 » 102 » 581,359
Vancouver Canucks#» 64,946,644 » 111 » 585,105
Florida Panthers#» 55,465,153 » 94 » 590,055
Pittsburgh Penguins#» 64,217,311 » 108 » 594,605
Chicago Blackhawks#» 60,244,540 » 101 » 596,481
New Jersey Devils#» 61,704,157 » 102 » 604,943
Boston Bruins#» 62,166,571 » 102 » 609,476
Carolina Hurricanes#» 50,522,806 » 82 » 616,132
Winnipeg Jets#» 51,760,331 » 84 » 616,194
New York Islanders#» 49,107,418 » 79 » 621,613
San Jose Sharks#» 61,423,233 » 96 » 639,825
Philadelphia Flyers#» 66,934,130 » 103 » 649,846
Los Angeles Kings#» 63,671,201 » 95 » 670,223
Minnesota Wild#» 55,800,758 » 81 » 688,898
Calgary Flames#» 64,249,090 » 90 » 713,879
Washington Capitals#» 66,356,277 » 92 » 721,264
Tampa Bay Lightning#» 60,915,904 » 84 » 725,189
Buffalo Sabres#» 65,360,369 » 89 » 734,386
Anaheim Ducks#» 59,256,051 » 80 » 740,701
Toronto Maple Leafs#» 63,463,825 » 80 » 793,298
Montreal Canadiens#» 62,200,199 » 78 » 797,438
Edmonton Oilers#» 60,489,576 » 74 » 817,427
Columbus Blue Jackets#» 61,340,354 » 65 » 943,698


Using the current standings and the pts the team would get over the full season at their current rate:


Anaheim Ducks » 55,977,626 » 137 » 408,596
Chicago Blackhawks » 67,534,067 » 148 » 456,311
St. Louis Blues » 49,759,258 » 104 » 478,454
Boston Bruins » 62,117,918 » 126 » 492,999
New Jersey Devils » 57,807,230 » 113 » 511,568
Pittsburgh Penguins » 61,415,699 » 113 » 543,502
Phoenix Coyotes » 50,633,305 » 92 » 550,362
Nashville Predators » 54,132,572 » 97 » 558,068
Montreal Canadiens » 66,117,813 » 115 » 574,938
Ottawa Senators » 53,553,131 » 92 » 582,099
Carolina Hurricanes » 58,653,855 » 100 » 586,539
Toronto Maple Leafs » 63,864,070 » 103 » 620,040
Vancouver Canucks » 69,359,242 » 111 » 624,858
Edmonton Oilers » 55,468,641 » 88 » 630,325
Dallas Stars » 57,306,843 » 87 » 658,699
New York Rangers » 66,784,714 » 100 » 667,847
San Jose Sharks » 67,423,788 » 100 » 674,238
Colorado Avalanche » 53,381,187 » 76 » 702,384
Detroit Red Wings » 62,765,442 » 87 » 721,442
Tampa Bay Lightning » 64,124,201 » 88 » 728,684
New York Islanders » 53,042,156 » 71 » 747,073
Minnesota Wild » 68,749,195 » 87 » 790,221
Los Angeles Kings » 63,138,181 » 76 » 830,766
Florida Panthers » 57,129,550 » 66 » 865,599
Calgary Flames » 65,973,055 » 76 » 868,067
Winnipeg Jets » 57,150,761 » 64 » 892,981
Buffalo Sabres » 64,406,266 » 67 » 961,288
Philadelphia Flyers » 70,331,091 » 72 » 976,821
Columbus Blue Jackets » 52,954,637 » 51 » 1,038,326
Washington Capitals » 63,881,027 » 60 » 1,064,684

[BEANZ]

Good post but sad to look at...

[Phanuthier]

Damn we're behind Toronto and New York. Sucks...

[Roof-Daddy]

This is probably what frustrates the most. So much wasted cap space on roster that is pathetic down the middle, and has a very slim chance to even make the playoffs.

Meanwhile, teams like Phoenix and Nashville are consistently making the playoffs, and even winning rounds lately, with a payroll that barely exceeds the cap floor.

Then you have Dallas, who has also struggled to make the playoffs lately, but they are in the mix every year, also with a cap floor payroll.

....and don't even get me started on teams like LA and St. Louis, cup contending/cup winner teams operating well below the Flames budget.

Heck, look at the Bruins. They have twice as much cap space as the Flames do right now (about $8 million), and that's not including Savards $4+ million cap hit which they don't even have to put on LTIR because they have so efficiently used their cap dollars.

Ridiculous.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

This is probably what frustrates the most. So much wasted cap space on roster that is pathetic down the middle, and has a very slim chance to even make the playoffs.

Meanwhile, teams like Phoenix and Nashville are consistently making the playoffs, and even winning rounds lately, with a payroll that barely exceeds the cap floor.

Then you have Dallas, who has also struggled to make the playoffs lately, but they are in the mix every year, also with a cap floor payroll.

....and don't even get me started on teams like LA and St. Louis, cup contending/cup winner teams operating well below the Flames budget.

Heck, look at the Bruins. They have twice as much cap space as the Flames do right now (about $8 million), and that's not including Savards $4+ million cap hit which they don't even have to put on LTIR because they have so efficiently used their cap dollars.

Ridiculous.

That's what happens when you only get decent players through free agency.

The only obscenely paid player on those teams are their absolute best players: Chara, Doughty, Quick, Jamie Benn, Keith Yandle, Oliver Ekman Larson, David Backes, Alex Pietrangelo, Shea Weber, Pekka Rinne.

Every team you're jealous of? Home grown talent or only top dollars for top players.

None of those teams have a guy like Cammalleri making 6 million, and that's because he ain't worth it.

[bubbsy]

this is what you get when you have a "win now" strategy built off the free-agent market.

it is usually sprinkled with plenty of overpayment, under-delivering vets.

[Northendzone]

so this thread is about financial honesty?

[BACKCHECK!!!]

This only counts player salary spending, however, does it not?

So it doesn't include coaches, trainers, medical staff, scouting staff, the management team itself, analytics, equipment and facility costs, etc.

I would certainly expect player salaries to be the dominant cost, but I'd be interested to see how much it actually costs these clubs to ice the teams that they do.

Unfortunately, I think the Flames have been pretty heavy spenders in a lot of these uncounted categories as well... frowny face..

[flylock shox]

Phoenix may win more games, but I wouldn't watch many of them even if I was a fan of the Coyotes.

They're insufferably dull.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Phoenix may win more games, but I wouldn't watch many of them even if I was a fan of the Coyotes.

They're insufferably dull.

This seems to be a common trend with the efficient teams...a good number of them win games but put the crowd into a comatose state.

[vilzeh]

I'd rather watch Flames play dull hockey if they win all the time..but oh, they do play dull hockey, it's just that they don't win.

[trackercowe]

Drafting is obviously a huge problem too. A lot of the better teams have many of their better players still signed to entry level contracts. Then you have the Flames who with their draft record under Sutter have none of those contracts to speak of. Drafting position is in part to blame, but there are always decent players to be had in later rounds as well.

Although you really can't blame Feaster for the Iginla, Stajan, Giordano, Kiprusoff, Tanguay, or obviously the Bouwmeester contract as those were all signed during the Sutter era. Then of course with Cammalleri he was at least able dump off another bad contract to get him. Too bad it also meant trading another second rounder we desperately need.

Then with Wideman and Hudler sure Feaster offered them top dollar, but at least they are doing something to earn their big contracts. Can you say the same about the other core guys? Aside from the occasional game, of course not.

I still respect Sutter, but man oh man the negative moves he made for this organization will probably continue on plaguing us for another few years.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by vilzeh

I'd rather watch Flames play dull hockey if they win all the time..but oh, they do play dull hockey, it's just that they don't win.

The last 3 years they played the dullest hockey. And didn't win... enough

[JurassicTunga12]

My god this is depressing.

[vilzeh]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The last 3 years they played the dullest hockey. And didn't win... enough

Exactly.

That's why I'm questioning the Phoenix comments about boring hockey, at least they are getting the job done and they get into playoffs.

[Five-hole]

I spent quite a while poring over drafts of the last 10 years tonight and noticed a significant trend. The first round produces players most of the time. It seems like, outside of the top 3-5 players, you have a 33% chance of getting a star, 33% of getting a player, and 33% chance of getting a bust. But it's outside of the first round where teams really make hay. The teams that get players in the 2nd rounds and later are those that seems to somehow compete every year, whether or not they have a high payroll.

Listing a couple of 2nd and later picks from these teams, they're the usual suspects: Boston (Lucic, Marchand, Bergeron), Detroit (Franzen, Abdelkader, Helm), New Jersey (Henrique), Colorado (Stasty, Galiardi, O'Reilly), Nashville (Hornqvist, Rinne, Kostitsyn), Montreal (Streit, Subban), Dallas (Benn, Neal).

The Flames' drafting record is, as well all know, just deplorable. Absolutely disgusting. Shameful. I'm not sure you could find a worse record, perhaps save Columbus who have squandered top picks like it's some secret contest we're unaware of. But the number of players that the Flames have put into the NHL from outside of the first round is shamefully small.

This is, of course, compounded with the sad fact that our first rounders have made almost zero impact since we drafted Derek fricking Morris. Phaneuf was the only valuable first rounder we'd had in a long time and we all know what happened there. Following that, we have the illustrious streak of Chucko, Pelech, Irving, and Nemisz. Woop.

Then we get the next string. Backlund may yet be a player, though certainly no star. Erixon, well ... then we have the first lost to acquire Jokinen, and then we have the Feaster era, which is far too early to judge.

So, in hindsight, outside of the Kipprusoff, Huselius, and Langkow trades, it could possibly be said that Darryl Sutter put this team thousands of years into the dark ages with the drafting and the asset management he oversaw. The Phaneuf trade was disastrous. So was the Jokinen trade (perhaps in hindsight only). Lydman for a 3rd was stupid. Darryl's drafting was fourteen kinds of awful. How the eff do you pick a winger from Junior B over the center?! The most glaring positional need of this team for TWO DECADES and you pick a cement-hands, poor-skating winger from junior B? Jesus. Chucko is just one example, but ...

On the flip side, Darryl-the-coach managed to squeeze every last drop out of a team led by probably the NHL's best player and the best goalie this organization has ever had for one memorable run and a few years of decent performance, and we've been so starved for success over the last 30 years that that was enough to give us hope that we could continue to live off the spoils of it. For the last decade, ONE PLAYOFF RUN was enough to make us think we had the horses to compete, and management has conducted affairs as though they believe the same thing.

The management of this team has been downright pathetic.

God love 'em, there's been a lot of players playing their hearts out for this team, and I've watched 95% of the games every year for the last decade and will continue to do so. But the direction of this team should be plainly evident at this point: downwards.

Caveat: I'm hammered. Sorry for the rant.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

I spent quite a while poring over drafts of the last 10 years tonight and noticed a significant trend. The first round produces players most of the time. It seems like, outside of the top 3-5 players, you have a 33% chance of getting a star, 33% of getting a player, and 33% chance of getting a bust. But it's outside of the first round where teams really make hay. The teams that get players in the 2nd rounds and later are those that seems to somehow compete every year, whether or not they have a high payroll.

Listing a couple of 2nd and later picks from these teams, they're the usual suspects: Boston (Lucic, Marchand, Bergeron), Detroit (Franzen, Abdelkader, Helm), New Jersey (Henrique), Colorado (Stasty, Galiardi, O'Reilly), Nashville (Hornqvist, Rinne, Kostitsyn), Montreal (Streit, Subban), Dallas (Benn, Neal).

The Flames' drafting record is, as well all know, just deplorable. Absolutely disgusting. Shameful. I'm not sure you could find a worse record, perhaps save Columbus who have squandered top picks like it's some secret contest we're unaware of. But the number of players that the Flames have put into the NHL from outside of the first round is shamefully small.

This is, of course, compounded with the sad fact that our first rounders have made almost zero impact since we drafted Derek fricking Morris. Phaneuf was the only valuable first rounder we'd had in a long time and we all know what happened there. Following that, we have the illustrious streak of Chucko, Pelech, Irving, and Nemisz. Woop.

Then we get the next string. Backlund may yet be a player, though certainly no star. Erixon, well ... then we have the first lost to acquire Jokinen, and then we have the Feaster era, which is far too early to judge.

So, in hindsight, outside of the Kipprusoff, Huselius, and Langkow trades, it could possibly be said that Darryl Sutter put this team thousands of years into the dark ages with the drafting and the asset management he oversaw. The Phaneuf trade was disastrous. So was the Jokinen trade (perhaps in hindsight only). Lydman for a 3rd was stupid. Darryl's drafting was fourteen kinds of awful. How the eff do you pick a winger from Junior B over the center?! The most glaring positional need of this team for TWO DECADES and you pick a cement-hands, poor-skating winger from junior B? Jesus. Chucko is just one example, but ...

On the flip side, Darryl-the-coach managed to squeeze every last drop out of a team led by probably the NHL's best player and the best goalie this organization has ever had for one memorable run and a few years of decent performance, and we've been so starved for success over the last 30 years that that was enough to give us hope that we could continue to live off the spoils of it. For the last decade, ONE PLAYOFF RUN was enough to make us think we had the horses to compete, and management has conducted affairs as though they believe the same thing.

The management of this team has been downright pathetic.

God love 'em, there's been a lot of players playing their hearts out for this team, and I've watched 95% of the games every year for the last decade and will continue to do so. But the direction of this team should be plainly evident at this point: downwards.

Caveat: I'm hammered. Sorry for the rant.

Darryl the GM was the one that started the drafting and development program for Calgary FYI. He was the one that convinced ownership to start up the Heat so they could control their own prospects, and also vastly expanded the scouting department.

Flames haven't been 'reaping what was sown' as yet, but Darryl hardly did anything to keep the Flames' drafting and development program in the dark ages. He had the opposite effect, to be accurate.

[neo45]

Darryl did great with a cash strapped team, but did terrible when he was given 70 million dollars to spend. He was really good at finding players that other teams undervalued and bringing them to the Flames for a reasonable pricetag.

I like Feaster's management style more. He is more cautious with his moves and has effectively rebuilt the Flames front office. If he had Darryl's eye for talent he would be a heck of a GM...

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Phoenix may win more games, but I wouldn't watch many of them even if I was a fan of the Coyotes.

They're insufferably dull.

You know what's exciting? Playoff hockey.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Darryl the GM was the one that started the drafting and development program for Calgary FYI. He was the one that convinced ownership to start up the Heat so they could control their own prospects, and also vastly expanded the scouting department.

You really don't think it had occurred to Flames ownership to do any of that stuff before Darryl Sutter was the GM? It was a matter of money. Sutter's reign as GM coincides with a dramatic uptick in the financial resources of the Flames and other Canadian NHL franchises. It's not a coincidence that the Oilers and Senators were also on the ropes in the late 90s, and then also had a lot more money to throw around starting around 2003.

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Flames haven't been 'reaping what was sown' as yet, but Darryl hardly did anything to keep the Flames' drafting and development program in the dark ages.

You mean besides trading away picks, drafting players more suited to the game of 1992 than the game of 2007, and plugging up the roster with broken-down veterans? Sutter drove this franchise into the ground with his stubborn sticking to an out-of-date approach to the game.