Westerner's Opinion

[DR.RHYTHM]

I live in Ontario and i'm a bit closer to the whole "Separtist" debacle. I imagine you guys hear about it in the Western regions of Canada, but not as much as we do here in Ontario with Quebe being our neighbour. I am half French half English and just consider myself Canadian, i speak both languages very well and im proud of what we've accomplished as a nation and how everyone looks at our country with envy. Why do the "Seperatist Quebecers" think they are so special? I reallly don't understand. We are a country of immigrants but the seperatists beleive themselves to be distinct and special, does that mean that the rest of Canadians are boring? as any other culture other than theirs?

I watch a lot of news in French and the Seperatists are quite sure that the next referendum will spell victory for a country called Quebec , makes me woried for the rest of our country. The Eastern provinces will be cut off by the bull-headed Frenchmen, It's not a stereotype in most cases to say that Seperatists are arrogant or ignorant, it's the truth, just go to Quebec city. I wish that they could comprehend that they have their own culture here in Canada, as Canadians, not "special people".

Like to read your opinions,

DOC.

[Winsor_Pilates]

When I saw the title of the post, I thought you were talking about Albertans who want to seperate. I guess you're closer to one seperatist debacle and we're starting to get one of our own out here. IMO, they're both without too much merit, but I've that arguement on this forum before, so I won't say anymore.

[Blaster86]

My girlfriend is French Canadian. She's also fluent in both and now resides in Vancouver. She describes sepratists the same way, as arrogant jerks. The ones she knew were also rather violent to anglophones.

Quebec is not self-sustaining as a country. As a province with the Federal government, they are fine.

If they do seperate I will be eagre to see them fail and come crawling back, or atleast go crawling to the Americans, who they seem to have strong distaste for.

[transplant99]

I have always been of the opinion that if someone/something no longer wants to be part of a supposedly equal union ( confederation in this instance), then let them go. Unhappy partners usually end up doing more harm than good the longer the dislike to be part of something goes on.

That being said......the logistics behind such an event are mind boggling and difficult to ever see coming to completion. Especially in Quebec.

Also, there are different levels of "seperatists", so it's hard to paint them ALL as arrogant, mean-spirited, ignorant etc etc.

The real groundswell of seperatist support started when the population of Quebec began feeling disenfranchised from the rest of Canada. Very much like what is happening in the West right now IMO. So I think a lot of French Canadians are "minimal seperatist" types that have seen what a BQ party has done for them in Ottawa, and as such continue to support them for that reason.

[moon]

I agree with transplant. The logistics would be so incredible to figure out that it would take years to figure out. Especially with all the ridiculous demands that the Separtists want.

I really can't see this ever happening. Even if the PQ gain back the power. The "anglophones and immigrants" will still be there plus those francophones that realise what an incredibly stupid idea it would be.

[DR.RHYTHM]

[ the population of Quebec began feeling disenfranchised from the rest of Canada. Very much like what is happening in the West right now IMO]

I don't quite get how Western Canada is feeling disenfranchised from Canada. Is it Ontario that makes all the other provinces feel disenfranchised? Is it Ottawa? Is it the Liberal party and all their shannanigans? Is there actually anti-Canadian sentiment in the west that is leading to a seperatist type attitude? it's interesting , don't get to talk to may people from Manitoba, Saskatchewan , Alberta and BC.

[transplant99]

Well, I guess the asiest way to descibe it (and this coming from someone who has been gone 5 years) is the regionaliztion that has occurred across the country.

The west (maybe BC not as much) feels like they have little say in a myriad of issues that affect them. Ontario is clearly the population base and as such, what they want, they tend to get(To put it simply, as they truly do elect the Federal government no matter how the Liberals try to spin it otherwise.

Quebec is what it is.

The Maritimes are again another "region" that feels betrayed at times by Ottawa.

4 seperate and distinct regions, who tend to disagree on more than they agree on.


As for the reason Alberta in particular feels disenfranchised with Ottawa and all things Liberal?

GST repeal lie (this one was by far the biggest lie of all IMO)

Adscam (and the appearance of JC to try and cover it up)

Jean Chretian

NEP of Pierre Trudeau (which DEVASTATED the Alberta economy and many feel like this clown in office may try and pull something similar) Many an Albertan has never forgotten nor forgiven the Liberals for that rape.

The abhorently juvenille and potentially damaging comments from senior politicians towards the US.... Canada, (and Albertas) largest trading partner and by far their biggest political and military ally.

Jean Chretian

Broken and hollow promises from the Liberals for decades.

Sheila Copps

The interference of provincial responsibilities by the Feds....health care being a huge one.

Pierre Trudeau

The refusal of Chretian and Martin to appoint Senators the people of Alberta wanted and democratically elected.

The use of the Supreme Court to create laws rather than using the system in place.....but this is debateable on a couple levels.

Pierre Trudeau

The transfer payment system. Alberta subsidizes the rest of the country to some degree.

Jean Chretian

It goes on and on...and the same can be said for Quebec and all points east.
To be fair, the Mulroney Libe...err...Conservatives were viewed in much the same manner by Albertans. You hear Lib supporters saying all the time " if the Conservatives were just more like the Liberals, they might get elected"...which is what the Mulroney era was. It, and he, failed their constituents miserably by trying to be like the Fibs.

My thoughts anyhow.

[arsenal]

Originally posted by DR.RHYTHM@Jun 26 2005, 07:40 PM
[ the population of Quebec began feeling disenfranchised from the rest of Canada. Very much like what is happening in the West right now IMO]

I don't quite get how Western Canada is feeling disenfranchised from Canada. Is it Ontario that makes all the other provinces feel disenfranchised? Is it Ottawa? Is it the Liberal party and all their shannanigans? Is there actually anti-Canadian sentiment in the west that is leading to a seperatist type attitude? it's interesting , don't get to talk to may people from Manitoba, Saskatchewan , Alberta and BC.

My personal opinion on why alberta is becoming disenfranchised with Canada, has to do with the federal government continually bending over for Quebec.
The continuation of equalization payments from Alberta to the rest of Canada, becuase the rest of Canada doesn't have oil.
That for the last 10 years, Alberta and the rest of Western canada has voted one way in federal elections, and Ontario voted in the Chretien Liberals (Martin is and will be a much better leader than Chretien ever was).

[Resolute 14]

Alberta is also often treated as the enemy of Canada by the federal government. Martin's fear mongering wrt Klein's health plans in the last election being the most recent example.

The complete political impotence we have at the federal level is also a major sore spot. While the maritimes often got screwed - Newfoundland in particular - they are also ridiculously overrepresented in the House of Commons, so much so that three provinces - Nova Scotia, PEI and New Brunswick have virtually as many seats as Alberta does, despite having barely half the population. As a result, it is much easier to win seats in Atlantic Canada, and that is why Martin played up his deal with Newfoundland and Nova Scotia - a Conservative promise that Martin only kept because he was stuck in a minority situation and needed to gain favor badly.

Alberta's, and to a lesser extent BC's, concerns often get ignored or overlooked because as far as the makeup of the house of Commons is concerned, we are the two least important provinces. Thus the strong desire for the EEE senate.

Trudeau and Lougheed practically went to war during their tenures, as the Alberta Premier fought to protect provincial rights from an arrogant jackass who thought he could govern Alberta better from Ottawa. Trudeau was a staunch centralist who's ideals ran counter to the ideals of Albertans from day one. The NEP was the straw that broke the camels back. No Liberal has been elected in Calgary since.

I don't recal Mulrooney's relationship with Alberta much. He did appoint our first elected Senator in Stan Waters, but I recall Mulrooney wasnt high on the idea, and when Watters died, he went back to appointing whom he wanted.

Chretien always played up to Quebec and Ontario, while ignoring Alberta, and his comments before the 2001 election stating he didnt like working with Albertans didnt earn him any friends. Martin came in promising to end the democratic deficit, and at ending western alienation, but has only made a complete mockery of both promises, as both Liberal PMs have consistantly refused to appoint our elected senators, and in Martin's case, appointed closet liberals to represent a conservative province. His special deals for Ontario, which now see Alberta pay twice as much per capita in tranfer payments than the centre of the universe arent helping either.

As far as Quebec goes, I think the seperatist agenda has done more harm to that province than it has helped. Montreal is rapidly declining as a major power centre in Canada, having long since been passed by Toronto, and both Calgary and Vancouver are either right behind or already ahead of Montreal in terms of importance. A lot of the angst is propaganda only, as many Quebeccers have convinced themselves that they get screwed by Ottawa when in reality a hell of a lot more federal dollars flow into Quebec than come out. The culture difference is obviously another factor.

Of course, the true seperatist segment is a lot smaller than most people realize. IIRC, a pretty healthy majority of Quebeccers who favor sovereignty actually think the concept means staying a part of Canada, but gaining special rights and powers.

My answer to those people is: Get the hell out of my country. IMNSHO, no province deserves special treatment, rights or priveledges. I am completely in favor of the provinces gaining more power overall, and the decentralization of our federal government, but as far as seperatist sentiment goes, you are either a province of Canada with the same rights as everyone else, or you are completely independent. No middle ground.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

My take is similar to transplants. I don't think its fair to call all separatists ignorant xenophobes - any more than it's fair to call all Albertans ignorant rednecks or all conservatives racist homophobes.

I'm a lot less condemning of the separatists than I used to be. It's an emotional issue, and while there might be all kinds of logical reasons why separatism is a bad idea for Quebec, I grudgingly accept the emotional reasons for it.

The federal government is a mess and seems to get worse not better. Every lie, boondoggle, and scandal just reinforces the idea that the problems of federalism will never be solved. The leaves the soft separatists - the majority I think - with little to choose from.

The separatists likely will win the next referendum, and part of me thinks that might be a good outcome for Canada. All that will mean is a start to negotiations, and by helping Quebec find a happy place within confederation the rest of us might just have to wake up and decide what kind of country we want. An open and honest conversation could work wonders for Quebec, the West, and everyone else. On the other hand if negotiations consist of little more than a p*ssing contest between Ottawa and Quebec then they can all kiss Jeremy Roenick's behind. Good riddance to them both.


edit: spelling

[Cowperson]

After the failure of the last Quebec referendum, I thought we would be home free but really, in the intervening years the political divisions in this country have grown to such an extent that it will probably mean we fracture along various fault lines at some point.

Its no longer just about Quebec.

Maybe we do end up as a loose confederation but something will eventually give way. People are simply becoming too disenfranchised with the status quo.

We're no longer Canadians, if we ever were in the first place. We're Quebecers, Maritimers, Albertans. . . . . and we all have different ways of perceiving things and thinking about them.

The only Canadians left are Ontarians and they will be the most surprised when it all falls apart.

I'm normally an optimistic person on pretty much everything but I've never been as pessimistic about the future of Canada as I am now.

I just look out into the future and see a rudderless and leaderless wallowing whale of a boat heading for the rocks with those at the top ignoring the undercurrents and singing "Try To Look On The Bright Side Of Life."

My two cents.

Cowperson

[dustygoon]

If they want to go, then I believe they should be allowed to go. I really do not see much changing anyway other than the borders on maps of Canada. This is a bit simplistic, but what I mean is that Quebec behaves as if it is on its own anyway when it comes to governing. Monetary policy is set at the federal level, but other than that, Quebec pretty much governs itself. I don't believe separation means that we can't still have extremely close ties after the separation.

I think some form of decentralization away from Ottawa is going to happen. It may come in the form of looser federalism or separation

[Thunderball]

Originally posted by dustygoon@Jun 27 2005, 01:57 PM
I think some form of decentralization away from Ottawa is going to happen. It may come in the form of looser federalism or separation

quoted for truth... Canada can't last as it is... we need to either become a federation of states, or simply split up into about 4 or 5 countries.