Question for Consulting Civil Engineers

[core_upt]

To the P.Eng portion of the CP Brain Trust
re: consulting in civil engineering - land development, water design, that sort of thing.

I don't work in engineering, but know someone who does and the pay structure doesn't make sense to me. This person is a full-time salaried employee (not contract).

From my understanding, the company bids on a project based on it taking X amount of hours, Once the project is awarded, each task is given Y amount of hours to complete. As a person works on each task, they bill their hours to the task number.

Here is what I don't get: If the company requires a task to be done in 5 hours, but it actually takes 15 hours, does the employee just 'suck up' the 10 extra hours they worked on it; overtime on their own time?

Further, if there isn't a project for a salaried employee to work on, they don't have a number to charge their time to, so they don't get paid.... does this seem normal? If they come into the office, check their email, do no project specific work, shouldn't they be able to charge their time to something instead of using vacation hours???

Just trying to get a feel for the normal practices out there and experiences of others. I can try and provide more info it further clarification is needed.

Thanks!

[Bill Bumface]

Pshhh..... just charge it to pther clients with room in the budget!

[guzzy]

there are companies out there that behave that way.....successful companies at that. My recommendation, if your friend doesn't like it get another job. There is opportunity everywhere...even for civil engineers.

[no_joke]

It depends on how deep the client's pockets are. Change orders begging for more money can be issued. Another way to do it is divert the charged time to a different task within the same project that does have budget left.

Generally, at least in Calgary, should there be no chargeable work for you, you should still be paid and be putting your time to overhead or adminstration. If your friend is using vacation hours at work, something is wrong. I've heard of engineering managers at my company who might have to "suck it up" and not charge time nor get paid for work rendered but not for junior staff. I'm sure the situation you describe happens all the time but personally I would draw the line at that.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Disclaimer: My experience might not be the same as others, also I'm not a civil engineer.

Originally Posted by core_upt

From my understanding, the company bids on a project based on it taking X amount of hours, Once the project is awarded, each task is given Y amount of hours to complete. As a person works on each task, they bill their hours to the task number.

Here is what I don't get: If the company requires a task to be done in 5 hours, but it actually takes 15 hours, does the employee just 'suck up' the 10 extra hours they worked on it; overtime on their own time?

The company sucks it up.

Originally Posted by core_upt

Further, if there isn't a project for a salaried employee to work on, they don't have a number to charge their time to, so they don't get paid.... does this seem normal? If they come into the office, check their email, do no project specific work, shouldn't they be able to charge their time to something instead of using vacation hours???

Generally, if the employee is full time and salaried, they have an agreement saying they must be paid for 40 hours per week. Again, that is the company's problem if they don't have the work, not the employees. It's only if the employee is a contractor that they're not guaranteed hours. Only during the recession did I see staff working less than 40 hours, it was a choice between that and no job for them.

[me_dennis]

Originally Posted by core_upt

To the P.Eng portion of the CP Brain Trust
re: consulting in civil engineering - land development, water design, that sort of thing.

I don't work in engineering, but know someone who does and the pay structure doesn't make sense to me. This person is a full-time salaried employee (not contract).

From my understanding, the company bids on a project based on it taking X amount of hours, Once the project is awarded, each task is given Y amount of hours to complete. As a person works on each task, they bill their hours to the task number.

Here is what I don't get: If the company requires a task to be done in 5 hours, but it actually takes 15 hours, does the employee just 'suck up' the 10 extra hours they worked on it; overtime on their own time?

Further, if there isn't a project for a salaried employee to work on, they don't have a number to charge their time to, so they don't get paid.... does this seem normal? If they come into the office, check their email, do no project specific work, shouldn't they be able to charge their time to something instead of using vacation hours???

Just trying to get a feel for the normal practices out there and experiences of others. I can try and provide more info it further clarification is needed.

Thanks!

This depends on what the situation is. What was the reason for the work taking 15 hours rather than 5? Was additional scope added? If so, then a Trend or Change order can be issued to charge back to the client. If the work took longer because of productivity issues (ie the employee took their sweet ass time) then that employee should be eating their time. If it was an issue with the Project Manager or whoever preparing the proposal underestimated the work, then the extra time should be taken out of overhead.

[core_upt]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Generally, if the employee is full time and salaried, they have an agreement saying they must be paid for 40 hours per week. Again, that is the company's problem if they don't have the work, not the employees. It's only if the employee is a contractor that they're not guaranteed hours. Only during the recession did I see staff working less than 40 hours, it was a choice between that and no job for them.

That's what I thought should happen - it's not really their fault that there is insufficient work, or that management is choosing to delegate projects to some and not others, or send work to other offices that are light on projects.

Originally Posted by me_dennis

This depends on what the situation is. What was the reason for the work taking 15 hours rather than 5? Was additional scope added? If so, then a Trend or Change order can be issued to charge back to the client. If the work took longer because of productivity issues (ie the employee took their sweet ass time) then that employee should be eating their time. If it was an issue with the Project Manager or whoever preparing the proposal underestimated the work, then the extra time should be taken out of overhead.

I believe the reason was underestimation and being (ironically) short-staffed (i.e. having to do the design, drafting and modelling, despite not being a drafter, so it takes longer).

[Northendzone]

i worked for a consulting firm in a non-egineering field and most of thier work was fee for service. We would scop out projects and provide a budget.

i was paid an annual salary, and i recorded my time to each project that i worked on. things always worked out for the best when projects are done within budget, sometimes things went sideways and i'd invest some of my own time. sometimes the scope of the project would change and you would bill for the time.

when i was not busy i recorded my time to general admin, and still got paid; however, at the tned of the year, you were partially judged on how many hours you billed.

[rohara66]

Time sheets are typically used for billing clients…. Not for tracking and paying employees.

BTW, tell your friend welcome to the world of consulting…. FML why didn’t they warn us in school!

[GP_Matt]

I am not in civil engineering but our office sounds similar. We have time sheets to code our time to whatever project we are working on. If we don't have anything going on at the moment we charge our time to general admin or client development or any number of categories. I get paid for all hours I put in although non-chargeable overtime is frowned upon and banned in some cases. A day golfing with a client is a maximum of 8 hours even if we go out for beers afterwards (cheap employer ).
At the end of the year though your chargeable ratio will have a factor in your bonus and raise potential. In my position however I have some control over how much work I bring in so if my ratio is poor it could be that I turned down work or performed poorly and lost clients.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Yep. The world of consulting engineering be a fickle wench. Feast or famine I always say. The questions you ask are quite typical. me_dennis gave a good response. Also, be weary of cheap clients who try to lowball you. Our company makes it a point to screen the crap out of our clients before dealing with them. And even then the cheap and/or non-paying client will squeak through.

And really your questions aren't just isolated to the engineering field. It's really a theme for consulting project management in general. Manage clients and profits, dealing with overheads, staff usage. It all comes with the territory.