ProtestWarrior.com

[HOZ]

Found this site where a bunch of guys started protesting the protesters. Basically they crash protests mocking the protesters with signs of their own. They video tape the protests and interview organisers and protesters alike. Some great foot-in-the-mouth stuff right from the horses' mouths! As well as, the masked thugs attacking the PW signs the so called peace protest seems to be quite violent.


Can't say I agree with everything they say but they sure have balls to face down hostile 'leftists' who are anything but peaceful. And they sure make some great points about the hypocracy of the protest movement.


I think the one thing they do say in which I think is true or becoming true is that the Left is now the Establishment and the Right is now the Activists who face an uphill battle against Liberal dogma

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by HOZ@Aug 15 2004, 03:08 AM
I think the one thing they do say in which I think is true or becoming true is that the Left is now the Establishment and the Right is now the Activists who face an uphill battle against Liberal dogma

Really? The Left is now the establishement? Better tell the world (and the Right), because I'm pretty sure the opposite is currently true, at least in North America (and probably the world). I suppose it depends on how you define the two.

Definitely don't agree w/ that statement as its presented though...

[HOZ]

YES I know it is dificult for the Liberals to realise that they are no longer in their beloved activist roll. The 60's liberal/socialist/activist generation is now middle age and low and behold they are the people with the reigns of power. Granted the smarter ones saw the light and become more conservative but Universities are full of 60's retreads calling themselves Profs and Administrators.

[Cowboy]

Originally posted by HOZ@Aug 16 2004, 12:55 AM
YES I know it is dificult for the Liberals to realise that they are no longer in their beloved activist roll. The 60's liberal/socialist/activist generation is now middle age and low and behold they are the people with the reigns of power. Granted the smarter ones saw the light and become more conservative but Universities are full of 60's retreads calling themselves Profs and Administrators.

Hoz, Smarter ones became conservative? I am liberal as I am sure many people know by now. I am not on the extreme left by any means, and I think I would agree with Conservative that leans left over a 'Red" liberal.

My concern is that there is a severe problem with ignorance on the right. I find most of the intelligent younger people are Liberal. This is not the case for the older generation necessarily, they have their reasons and that is fine.

[zarrell]

Originally posted by Cowboy@Aug 15 2004, 09:13 PM
I find most of the intelligent younger people are Liberal.

You mean you find yourself agreeing with the younger liberal minds more and are equating that with intelligence.

[Deelow]

Originally posted by Cowboy+Aug 16 2004, 03:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowboy @ Aug 16 2004, 03:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-HOZ@Aug 16 2004, 12:55 AM
YES I know it is dificult for the Liberals to realise that they are no longer in their beloved activist roll. The 60's liberal/socialist/activist generation is now middle age and low and behold they are the people with the reigns of power. Granted the smarter ones saw the light and become more conservative but Universities are full of 60's retreads calling themselves Profs and Administrators.

Hoz, Smarter ones became conservative? I am liberal as I am sure many people know by now. I am not on the extreme left by any means, and I think I would agree with Conservative that leans left over a 'Red" liberal.

My concern is that there is a severe problem with ignorance on the right. I find most of the intelligent younger people are Liberal. This is not the case for the older generation necessarily, they have their reasons and that is fine. [/b][/quote]
and they are also out of touch with reality. It's great to be an activist and protest and burn flags but IMO most of these activists believe that world is a simple as "Give Peace a Chance". I just see very few of them taking a pro-active approach. It's easy to show up at a protest and bitch and whine but when it comes to generating new ideas I don't see many of them making any contributions. Hippies will never be anything more than hippies because it takes some elbow grease to get work done, they're not interested in working. They only want to complain.

[Cowboy]

Originally posted by zarrell+Aug 16 2004, 03:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (zarrell @ Aug 16 2004, 03:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowboy@Aug 15 2004, 09:13 PM
I find most of the intelligent younger people are Liberal.

You mean you find yourself agreeing with the younger liberal minds more and are equating that with intelligence. [/b][/quote]
Great point... but just as Hoz was for the older generation conservatives. The post was written terribly, and it was more of a quick defense of Liberals that was not well thought out.

I am less likely to find common ground with the extreme left than I am say the far right...

[Bingo]

Another string where a few people basicallyl equate those that think differently than themselves as less intelligent.

A very dangerous way to live one's life.

"smarter ones that saw the light"
"ignorance on the right"

Yikes.

I do think more "young" people, that is university level people tend to lean left. They get that from the University experience, their professors and such. Many continue to be left the rest of their lives, but a good chunk of those start to drift right in my estimation as they get a little older. I know I did.

The university left seems to be very much about fighting the establishment (government, the US, big companies), something that often changes quite quickly once they realize they will likely need a job with a government body or a big company.

Hope I didn't offend.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

hmmm to quote the Red vs. Blue intro to the internet

"DIE DIE AND GO TO HELL!!! I HOPE YOU GET RAPED... TWICE... MAYBE THEN YOU'LL CHANGE YOUR OPINION!!! I VOTED FOR NADER, I HAVE EVERYONE!!! Want to change your homepage to Moulan.org? Politics makes me SOOOOOO Horney, check out my webcam pic at PresidentalSLUTS.com"

that just about sums everthing up

[Cowboy]

Originally posted by Bingo@Aug 16 2004, 01:27 PM
Another string where a few people basicallyl equate those that think differently than themselves as less intelligent.

A very dangerous way to live one's life.

"smarter ones that saw the light"
"ignorance on the right"

Yikes.

I do think more "young" people, that is university level people tend to lean left. They get that from the University experience, their professors and such. Many continue to be left the rest of their lives, but a good chunk of those start to drift right in my estimation as they get a little older. I know I did.

The university left seems to be very much about fighting the establishment (government, the US, big companies), something that often changes quite quickly once they realize they will likely need a job with a government body or a big company.

Hope I didn't offend.

The reason why I said intelligence tends to make more people liberal is for one, my friends are great case study, and two, because Liberal people tend to come out of University...so I don't necessarily think that intelligence and University have and even relationship.

I also thought that older people remain where they are and everybody else becomes more liberal, rather than the older generations moving more right

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Cowboy+Aug 16 2004, 02:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowboy @ Aug 16 2004, 02:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bingo@Aug 16 2004, 01:27 PM
Another string where a few people basicallyl equate those that think differently than themselves as less intelligent.

A very dangerous way to live one's life.

"smarter ones that saw the light"
"ignorance on the right"

Yikes.

I do think more "young" people, that is university level people tend to lean left. They get that from the University experience, their professors and such. Many continue to be left the rest of their lives, but a good chunk of those start to drift right in my estimation as they get a little older. I know I did.

The university left seems to be very much about fighting the establishment (government, the US, big companies), something that often changes quite quickly once they realize they will likely need a job with a government body or a big company.

Hope I didn't offend.

The reason why I said intelligence tends to make more people liberal is for one, my friends are great case study, and two, because Liberal people tend to come out of University...so I don't necessarily think that intelligence and University have and even relationship.

I also thought that older people remain where they are and everybody else becomes more liberal, rather than the older generations moving more right [/b][/quote]
I think people are idealistic when they're younger and more become more cynical - realistic - with experience.

The Protest Generation of the 1960's, the baby boomers who are the most numerically profuse group in the USA, are now the crotchety old farts who might re-elect GW Bush.

Prior to the Iraq conflict, a young man at an anti-war protest rally was holding up a sign that said: "Peace In Our Time." Obviously a kid who had no clue as to the historical significance of the phrase.

Are we talking about intelligence or experience married to intelligence?

Cowperson

[calf]

Originally posted by Cowboy+Aug 16 2004, 08:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowboy @ Aug 16 2004, 08:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bingo@Aug 16 2004, 01:27 PM
Another string where a few people basicallyl equate those that think differently than themselves as less intelligent.

A very dangerous way to live one's life.

"smarter ones that saw the light"
"ignorance on the right"

Yikes.

I do think more "young" people, that is university level people tend to lean left. They get that from the University experience, their professors and such. Many continue to be left the rest of their lives, but a good chunk of those start to drift right in my estimation as they get a little older. I know I did.

The university left seems to be very much about fighting the establishment (government, the US, big companies), something that often changes quite quickly once they realize they will likely need a job with a government body or a big company.

Hope I didn't offend.

The reason why I said intelligence tends to make more people liberal is for one, my friends are great case study, and two, because Liberal people tend to come out of University...so I don't necessarily think that intelligence and University have and even relationship.

I also thought that older people remain where they are and everybody else becomes more liberal, rather than the older generations moving more right [/b][/quote]
Your post doesn't make sense.

Can I ask how your friends make a great case study as to why Liberals are intelligent? I'm sure they are, but how do they represent the population of Liberals? How about me and my friends? We're intelligent and Conservative, so so what? I won't claim that that fact shows conservatives are more intelligent. Also, do Conservatives tend to not come out of University? Can you show me some stats to back that up? I think you're just making assumptions, personally.

[CaptainCrunch]

I actually take a lot of offense to the whole intelligence equates political affiliation argument.

i could say the opposite or better yet I could say something to the effect of

Liberal's have a theoretical concept of how the world works and how people would react, and that would be a good explanation as to why lefties believe that every solution can be negotiated, people want more social programs no matter what the cost, and the World Court and the UN should have authority over everything international.

Conservatives understand how the world works on a realistic term. That some people can't be negotiated with, sometimes might needs to be used. That the economy would work better if social programs were reduced and more money was placed into the individual pockets, that your friends when given the opportunity to screw you will screw you hard, action speaks louder than words, and the UN and World Courts are useless and corrupt.

I think that I'm a very intelligent person, university educated, but what seperates me from the left lib younger crowd is that I've been tempered by real world experiences internationally, and I've been tempered by seeing how economies have been screwed over and raped by a left based system.

Does that make me more intelligent than some kid in university thats been listening to a liberal professor? Probably not, but it certainly makes me more well rounded.

[kermitology]

There's a difference between intelligence and idealism.. just because you might believe in something that is idealistic doesn't mean you're an idiot for doing so.

Oh, and I'm currently a University student, I certainly haven't had my political views skewed by the U of C. Maybe I'm just so smart as a centre right supporter..

[Maritime Q-Scout]

well I've said it before, I'll say it again. In my part of the country I am definately right leaning, however if I was in Alberta I'd be considered a lefty.

I'm much MUCH more right wing that my fellow 2004 Poli Sci graduates, as I do believe in the market, corporate welfare, and fiscal responsibility. However in the same token, I believe in the social saftey net, education, and public healthcare (infact ideally public dentistry, optometry, and legal system would create a more equal playing feild for all, not saying that if I was PM right now I'd do that, re: fiscal responsibilty point). But I think that's a big difference between myself, and other graduates fresh out of univiersity (mind you I'm back again but in a grad school this September) is that I realize that money is important, and makes the world work. I don't believe in communisim, but a mixture of capitalism, and communism would be nice... which is what I think socialism is supposed to be, somewhere in the middle.

Right wing believes tend to be more realistic, and left wing believers tend to be more idealistic, and nothing's wrong with either. We wouldn't enjoy the great country we have if it wasn't for a blend of ideologies we currently have.

I'm not going to say the Liberals are always right, the Conservatives are always wrong, and the NDP are all nut-jobs... as ... well ... it isn't true. I'm not going to say the vice-versa ... as ... well ... it isn't true.

I feel really dorky saying this, but in that Red vs. Blue video the line "I disagree but I respect your opinion" really fits. In an argument my goal is not to turn the other person over to my point of view, but merely understand it. If you can understand where the Liberals/Conservaties/NDP/Green/Bloc/etc are coming from then you're making an informed choice, and are qualified to argue for/against a proposal, or belief.

***

Another note I want to make, while skimming through this topic people are using these two terms interchangably "liberal" and "Liberal" there is a HUGE difference.

liberal (small "L") is an ideology, which falls to the left side of the political scale

Libearl (big "L") is a political party, which usually varies from left to right, and currently follow a conservative ideology (small "c'). Just to be clear the Liberals are currently not liberal... but there's nothing wrong with that.

[Bingo]

Originally posted by kermitology@Aug 16 2004, 09:38 AM
There's a difference between intelligence and idealism.. just because you might believe in something that is idealistic doesn't mean you're an idiot for doing so.

Exactly ...

and you need that balance. The world would be a pretty sad place if there were no ideals, nothing to strive for, no purposeful pursuit of improvement.

However, more often than not, those that "rage against the machine" in their college years are more than happy to join said machine when they get out of school.

Doesn't make anyone an idiot, or more intelligent ... people just change.

[Mike F]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Aug 16 2004, 08:18 AM
Liberal's have a theoretical concept of how the world works and how people would react, and that would be a good explanation as to why lefties believe that every solution can be negotiated, people want more social programs no matter what the cost, and the World Court and the UN should have authority over everything international.

Conservatives understand how the world works on a realistic term. That some people can't be negotiated with, sometimes might needs to be used. That the economy would work better if social programs were reduced and more money was placed into the individual pockets, that your friends when given the opportunity to screw you will screw you hard, action speaks louder than words, and the UN and World Courts are useless and corrupt.

Oh please

First of all, you've taken a far liberal approach as the typical leftist, and compared it to a centrist conservative approach as the typical right. Every solution can be negotiated vs. sometimes might needs to be used??? And how can you support stating that liberal economic policies are unrealistic and tending to screw a society when both Canada and the US have had much greater prosperity under recent liberal governments than conservative governments? Unless of course you want to compare extreme liberal policies to centrist conservative policies just to support your side again.

Contrary to what seems to be the general sentiment around here, as people leave university they don't move right because it is the more realistic ideaology. Centrist liberal views are just as realistic as centrist conservative, and extreme conservative views are just as unrealistic as extreme liberal. IMO, the reason some people shift is because they become more self-focused; they become less concerned with the well being of the world and society and more concerned with themselves and their family; making sure children they'll never meet have health care loses importance to having money to put their kid through university.

Neither view is more right, neither is more realistic, just different priorities.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

I just want to make something clear

when I said "realistic" I mean more pratice beliefs, their ideas aren't how the world should be and strive for it, it's more of a this is how it is, now to change it to something that's a bit better

when I said "idealistic" I mean more how the world should be, and trying to strive towards it.

the thought process seems to be different

right: something's wrong, look around at limitations, how do I fix this problem?

let: something's wrong, how should it be? now how to fix it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Oh please

First of all, you've taken a far liberal approach as the typical leftist, and compared it to a centrist conservative approach as the typical right. Every solution can be negotiated vs. sometimes might needs to be used??? And how can you support stating that liberal economic policies are unrealistic and tending to screw a society when both Canada and the US have had much greater prosperity under recent liberal governments than conservative governments? Unless of course you want to compare extreme liberal policies to centrist conservative policies just to support your side again.

If you take a look at a great many of the economic successes they were started and initiated by the previous conservative governments. The Liberal's in Canada for example are only good at taking credit for them. From a certain point of view a baboon could run Canada's economy because a great deal of automation in it now. But it takes a liberal or conservative to be able to throw a wrench into the machinery and screw it up. The Economy of Canada generates revenue in spite of the Liberal policies put into place and the wasteful spending on overfunded social programs, and vote buying scams.

And besides the Conservatives (big C) are just as guilty of it, but they are merely liberal light in thier polices the World hasen't seen a true Conservative platform sinces the 19th century.

As far as defining Ultra Left to Centralist conservatives, you could possibly be right, it just strikes me as odd, that University professors, government officials and other people who haven't actually had to function in the real world are the ones that drive liberal policy.

Its just like Karl Marx and the development of Communist theory, had no real basis in how the real world model worked, because he never worked in the real world.

I'm going to take heat for this whole post, but I don't care. The biggest problem with our government right now is that they don't know how the real world works because they've never been there. The biggest problem with a lot and not all university professors that are teaching our kids is they teach straight out of thier favorite textbooks with no concept of fairness or balance because they've never seen how thier model works in the real world.

Contrary to what seems to be the general sentiment around here, as people leave university they don't move right because it is the more realistic ideaology. Centrist liberal views are just as realistic as centrist conservative, and extreme conservative views are just as unrealistic as extreme liberal. IMO, the reason some people shift is because they become more self-focused; they become less concerned with the well being of the world and society and more concerned with themselves and their family; making sure children they'll never meet have health care loses importance to having money to put their kid through university.

I don't buy this for a second. People don't become self aborded like that due to anything except that thier idealogical concepts no longer function once they get into a real world model. You might be stating it differently, but it would be nice to feed the world and provide healthcare for my children, but government economic policy might prevent that through to over taxation etc. Economic reality is the great equalizer.

People also become a lot more open minded when they're put out from the shielded life of a university student where your almost forced to agree with your professor in theoretical subjects in order to get a passing grade. Try debating a Pro-Union professor on the evils of a union sometime in a term paper, its a guaranteed riot.

The real world has a way of jading people on thier political beliefs and economic duties in a very short period of time, hence hippies became yuppies who becam staunch conservatives in large numbers.


Neither view is more right, neither is more realistic, just different priorities

That I can agree on, however it would be interesting to see where the shift lies and in which direction it goes. Too bad our government hasen't paid me a coupla mil to do that for a living.

[Bill Bumface]

So.. Protestwarrior.com hey?

I think we need sticky left vs. right battle thread in the OT forum.