Alberta looking at ways to expand natural gas use, including in vehicles

[Azure]

CALGARY • Alberta’s premier says the province is looking at ways to boost the use of natural gas, including using it as a transportation fuel, at a time when dismal prices have been pinching producers as well as government coffers.

“This is part of the direction we need to go in, because the circumstances have changed to the point where these decisions, that can be made on behalf of government, start to make economic sense — for us and for industry,” Alison Redford told a conference on unconventional natural gas Tuesday.

Ms. Redford concedes there are barriers to the idea, including the great expense of building refuelling infrastructure and the high purchase price of vehicles that can run on natural gas.

http://business.financialpost.com/20...__lsa=cde5d489

Why not? Cheap enough, with huge reserves all over North America.

Cleaner than 'oil' too.

[CaptainCrunch]

ok, call me stupid, but wouldn't that be pretty dangerous if the fueld tank fractures?

[Bill Bumface]

I still think NG vehicles are silly.

Take the emissions away from the population to the power plants. Just build some monster NG power plants and use electric cars. Better performance, better range, less maintenance, no new fueling infrastructure required.

[Reaper]

I dunno, how about using natural gas instead of coal for electricity generation? How about that one?

[SebC]

Not sure pumping gas's tires is such a good idea for Alberta if it would be at the expense of oil.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

I still think NG vehicles are silly.

Take the emissions away from the population to the power plants. Just build some monster NG power plants and use electric cars. Better performance, better range, less maintenance, no new fueling infrastructure required.

What about the issues around battery disposal for electric cars. The environmental issues around the manufacture of the car. The relatively short life of the batteries and the cost of replacement.

I'm not pooping on the electric car but isn't the overall emmissions of the whole lifecycle similar to the standard car, but the cost of keeping one on the road much greater?

I would think that it would be just as prudent to continue to improve engine efficiencies and burning technology on standard vehicles?

[Jacks]

Sounds great until nat gas goes back up to $6. Remember when everyone wanted to convert their car to propane in the 80''s & 90's?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Sounds great until nat gas goes back up to $6. Remember when everyone wanted to convert their car to propane in the 80''s & 90's?

Considering propane is a byproduct and natural gas is not, I would venture to guess that the cost isn't comparable.

Also, there are HUGE natural gas reserves all over the world. Nevermind the recent developments with shale.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Reaper

I dunno, how about using natural gas instead of coal for electricity generation? How about that one?

On a side by side basis, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to replace all the coal fired power plants in the world with natural gas plants instead.

45% less emissions.

[GP_Matt]

A big issue with electric cars is the charge time. AFAIK you have to either swap batteries or leave them idle while it charges.

For Natural gas I can see the province starting with an incentive for cities to switch their fleets over. I am sure that Calgary spends millions on gas and diesel for their buses and maintenance vehicles.

[REDVAN]

Originally Posted by SebC

Not sure pumping gas's tires is such a good idea for Alberta if it would be at the expense of oil.

Why not?

[GP_Matt]

Coal is still around because it is incredibly cheap. I don't remember the numbers but I think coal comes in at less than half the cost of NG for electricity generation. Of course coal has environmental issues but at the moment coal is cheap and they don't have to factor in the cost to the environment.

[Red Slinger]

In many parts of Australia the city buses are powered by Natural Gas. I'm guessing that they're used in parts of Europe also.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Azure

On a side by side basis, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to replace all the coal fired power plants in the world with natural gas plants instead.

45% less emissions.

You also have to compare gas to retrofitting the coal plants with CO2 scrubbers.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

Why not?

Because our competitive advantage in oil is (I think) bigger than our competitive advantage in gas.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

What about the issues around battery disposal for electric cars. The environmental issues around the manufacture of the car. The relatively short life of the batteries and the cost of replacement.

You are making a lot of assumptions. What makes you think the battery packs have a short life? So far that has proven not to be the case in a hybrid. As for the cost of replacement, what about the cost to replace your engine, or transmission, or any of the numerous emissions control components. Or the exhaust system. An electric car has far less components that are prone to failure. As far as battery disposal, they are not tossed away they are recycled, same as just about every other component that goes into a car. Actually a battery is easier to recycle than some other parts of the car, for example the electronics contain a bewildering array of compounds.

I'm not pooping on the electric car but isn't the overall emmissions of the whole lifecycle similar to the standard car, but the cost of keeping one on the road much greater?

I don't think there is enough data to say. But a pure electric car has the potential to be extremely reliable, and have far less maintenance. The fact that you don't have any combustion taking place GREATLY simplifies and extends the life of all the components involved. Look at any modern engine bay, the sheer number of systems designed to deal with the fuel, combustion and resulting emissions is substantial to say the least.

I would think that it would be just as prudent to continue to improve engine efficiencies and burning technology on standard vehicles?

The thermal efficiency of the internal combustion engine is about as good as it gets.

As for natural gas, IMO the best way to utilize it is to generate electricity, and use it to charge electric powered cars. It's not a perfect system, but given our current infrastructure about as good as we can do.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Azure

Considering propane is a byproduct and natural gas is not, I would venture to guess that the cost isn't comparable.

I wasn't trying to directly compare propane and natural gas. At the time propane was cheap and gas was expensive. People paid lots of money to have vehicles converted and gas stations began installing the infrastructure to service those vehicles. Then the price of propane went up and gas came down leaving a bunch of vehicles that nobody wanted. Now you have to look around to find a gas station that will fill a propane vehicle, just guessing maybe 1 in 30?

Also I'm not an expert by any means but you can't directly compare the two anyway. The same volume of propane will create a lot more energy than natural gas. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will elaborate.

[para transit fellow]

The historical challenge with propane and Natural gas was that you had to get the tanks re-tested every five years.... at a cost of $3000 - $4000. This seems to negate the savings. Furthermore the LPG industry kept raising the safety/redunancy bar so it became harder and costlier to get the vehicle's propane system serviced (many tech got frustrated with the regs and let their LPG tickets lapse).

I am told that the new generation of CNG tanks won't need re-testing. But I will bet that CNG will start off as "worry-free" and every few years there will be additional stipulations and regulations... stuff that makes maintaining your vehicle a real pain in the neck.

BTW I understand the majority of Southern California's transit service is via CNG powered buses (initiated by California emissions regulations)

[EVERLAST]

and it begins

[nickerjones]

Cmon , Oklahoma needs a bailout.. We got all the Natural gas ya'll need !!! Lets do this... so I can go back to work ; )