U.S. Army Sergeant goes on a 16 person killing spree

[CaptainCrunch]

Truly sad and tragic news, as a U.S. Army Sergeant attached to Village Stabilization Operation, something started by the Canadian Forces went door to door killing 16 Afghanistan citizens including 3 girls under the age of 16.

In an environment already ready to explode due to the stupid burning of the Qur'an this will probably permanently turn any moderates against Western Solder's and create an incredibly dangerous environment.

I will say that I'm amazed that this hasn't happened sooner and more often, in a war where the enemy hides among friends, where the enemy is rarely seen and uses suicide bombers the training and support given to these soldiers does not match up to the current requirement.

At this point there is probably nothing more that can be done in Afghanistan, any good will for example that the Canadian's had gained as a representative of the West is now effectively gone, pissed away over the last 6 months by continued blunders by the American's and a corrupt and two faced Afghanistan government.

Its probably time to get the rest of the Canadian's out of there, its probably now time for the American's to withdraw and let the Kharzi government stand or fall on its own.

Its also clear that this soldier is going to be facing a general court marshal and not see the light of day again, in a sense he not only betrayed his unit and put it in danger, but he betrayed his country and unraveled any chance for the American's to gain any kind of minor foothold in that region.

I feel terrible for the victims of this senseless shooting, they are the worst kind of victims and will probably become unwitting rallying cries for extremism.

Its time to leave that region on its own

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/wo...dier-held.html

[Prairiefire]

Well said Captain

[driveway]

I would like to agree with you that it's time to leave the region on its own, but we have to remember the last time we did that one of the worst governments of the last 50 years was established and it allowed the country to be used as a training base for terrorist groups.

Is the situation in Afghanistan substantially different right now than it was in 1988 when the Soviets left? Would leaving now result in the same situation repeating itself?

[Vulcan]

One of the reasons the US is in Afghanistan is to get access to their resources and if they pull out that will be history. Otherwise I don't see why the Americans care who runs that country as long as it isn't the al Qaeda. The other reason is to keep the al Queda busy so they don't threaten the West. To keep the al Qaeda on their heels they need a base or bases in Afghanistan or Pakistan for their drone strikes.

Are the Taliban and al Qaeda still in lock step?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

One of the reasons the US is in Afghanistan is to get access to their resources and if they pull out that will be history. Otherwise I don't see why the Americans care who runs that country as long as it isn't the al Qaeda. The other reason is to keep the al Queda busy so they don't threaten the West. To keep the al Qaeda on their heels they need a base or bases in Afghanistan or Pakistan for their drone strikes.

Are the Taliban and al Qaeda still in lock step?

The cost of extracting any resources out of Afghanistan doesn't balance against the costs of securing the area.

I don't know if you can perpetually fight a war there just to keep Al Qaeda busy any more either since Al Qaeda or what's left of it is more prolific in Pakistan and other middle east countries.

The Taliban and al Qaeda will always be in lockstep.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by driveway

I would like to agree with you that it's time to leave the region on its own, but we have to remember the last time we did that one of the worst governments of the last 50 years was established and it allowed the country to be used as a training base for terrorist groups.

Is the situation in Afghanistan substantially different right now than it was in 1988 when the Soviets left? Would leaving now result in the same situation repeating itself?

Its going to happen no matter what happens there, the American's just like the other nations are leaving and leaving soon, and their government, police and military are full of Taliban and other extreme sympathizers anyways.

Kharzi will be hanging from a flag pole a week after the yanks leave.

Personally, if the government there falls, the American's should simply inform the new government that they are targeting the country with hundreds of nuclear weapons and if a terrorist attack is traced back to them, then Afghanistan ceases to exist.

Ok, I'm exaggerating slightly, but that govenrment is going to fall, and the Western powers can't stay there for ever.

there have been massive failures on the Afghan government side, and the Aemrican's have tossed away all of their good will with the moderate population very quickly.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The cost of extracting any resources out of Afghanistan doesn't balance against the costs of securing the area.

I don't know if you can perpetually fight a war there just to keep Al Qaeda busy any more either since Al Qaeda or what's left of it is more prolific in Pakistan and other middle east countries.

The Taliban and al Qaeda will always be in lockstep.

Balancing the costs isn't important. The government could spend 10 to 1 on the costs of the war against the commercial rewards and big industry would be more than happy. Still I agree that wasn't the main motivation for going into Afghanistan.

My money is on the Taliban having a good chance of regaining control of that country if the US pulls out and than the al Qaeda will again have a safe base to train and grow their brand. Dangerous business.

Your post #6 already says along the lines of what I was thinking. As long as the US can keep bases in Pakistan to run their drones at the al Qaeda, they should be able to control the situation somewhat.

[flamesfever]

I don't know whether one man's psychotic act could or should change the long range plans to help the Afgan people develop a better society for benefit of all concerned. We've paid a price in blood to try and make it happen, and I would not like to see it all done in vain, because of an individual losing his mind.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I don't know whether one man's psychotic act could or should change the long range plans to help the Afgan people develop a better society for benefit of all concerned. We've paid a price in blood to try and make it happen, and I would not like to see it all done in vain, because of an individual losing his mind.

With the sensitivity of the Afghan people, their (sorry to say) lack of education and poor communications from any centralized government, their fear of the extremists, and the quick time for this event following the riots that occurred due to the burning of the Koran, plus a government that is playing both sides of the fence.

The amount of damage that this is going to cause is going to be massive.

[Elvis_Meat_Face]

I blame Call of Duty........

[Dion]

…Many soldiers have told us killing the enemy was one of their most haunting memories. Is that usually the case?

I think it's one of the most powerful pieces for most of the people that I've treated who have been in close combat situations. I had one World War II veteran I remember -- to the day he died he could still describe the face of the man he was about to kill. He was that close, that personal, that he felt like he could read the man's entire life just in his eyes, and he was in a situation where he had no choice but to kill him. I hear this frequently.

I think the loss of faith, both in the safety of the world and the loss of faith in one's own humanity, is threatened when people kill other people, which is what we train them to do in war. I mean, it's how you win the war is you kill people, but you take somebody off the street who spent their whole life learning not to kill other people, not to harm other people and put them in a situation where it's his job to kill somebody else. I've not ever met a person who killed others who was not affected by that.

I was hearing a story from a World War II bomber the other day who talked about being able to see the people fleeing and still feeling that today -- you know, "How could I have done such a thing? Where was my sense of reason?" But we know how they did it. There are a lot of military training techniques which are based on dehumanizing the enemy and making people able to kill. I mean, you don't take somebody out of a Sunday school class and try to win a war with that person. You've got to go through some training in between.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...emes/prep.html

[CaptainCrunch]

I remember the training that I went through in basic and in infantry school and the work they did on two fronts to supposedly make it easier on you.

1) Its you or him, and he's willing to kill you.
2) Shooting a person is no different then shooting a target, if we work you every day at shooting that target when the time comes you'll just react
3) If you think about it, if you let your humanity enter the decision, then not only are you dead, but probably a bunch of your friends are dead to.

There was a certain vilification of the enemy as well. When I was in, our enemy was the Warsaw pact and more specifically the Soviets, we studied their war conduct during the second world war, their tactics, we talked about what they were willing to do to their own people. We thought that they were 10 feet tall, relentless and would not only want to kill us, but re-enact what they did in Berlin at the end of the second world war.

But the face of warfare has chanced a great deal, when your fighting a enemy that dresses in civillian clothes, buries IED's and scurries away like a rat, or charges or drives into you with a bomb vest or trucks filled with explosives, its (according to a 3 tour fried of mine,and a few others) you can't trust this situation, nor can you trust anyone that's not your buddy and if things get sticky f$$$ them.

I would expect that this Sergeant when the story is released is a multi term veteran, probably did a spin or two in Iraq, saw some close friends get blown away, and probably had something bad happen recently.

I'm not trying to excuse him, or force an understanding of him, but its important to know.

[You Need a Thneed]

Turn the Sargent over to the Afgans to deal with him as they wish.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Turn the Sargent over to the Afgans to deal with him as they wish.

Do you trust the Afghani justice system?

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

With the sensitivity of the Afghan people, their (sorry to say) lack of education and poor communications from any centralized government, their fear of the extremists, and the quick time for this event following the riots that occurred due to the burning of the Koran, plus a government that is playing both sides of the fence.

The amount of damage that this is going to cause is going to be massive.

I don't doubt that the damage could be massive, but would not a court marshal and imprisonment, in our minds, be admitting the individual was of sound enough mind to realize what he was doing?

Perhaps you are right in that with the probable huge difference in the way we think from the Afgans because of poor education etc.(something we are trying to correct), they may not appreciate that someone who commits such an act, may be doing so in the psychotic state.

And perhaps with this, coupled with the other events, it may be enough to seriously make it impossible to get the majority of Afgans onside, in appreciating our objectives in being there. However, as an optimist, I hope you are wrong, as it would leave the country in a hell of a mess, and all our efforts would be for nothing...perhaps even having to return at a later time for our own protection.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I would expect that this Sergeant when the story is released is a multi term veteran, probably did a spin or two in Iraq, saw some close friends get blown away, and probably had something bad happen recently.

I'm not trying to excuse him, or force an understanding of him, but its important to know.

A U.S. official said the suspect is a conventional soldier from Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Wash.

Another U.S. official said the sergeant is married and has two children. He served three tours in Iraq, and had been serving his first deployment in Afghanistan since December.

from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1338123.html

Nail on the head CC.

In regards to the issues in Afghanistan, I am of the opinion that they stem ultimately from the poverty and lack of prosperity in the country. This facilitates the issues of extremism, tribalism and xenophobia. The goal of the NATO countries from the get-go should have been building roads to prosperity for the country.

Alas, the Bush Administration decided that a better idea would be to spend (at minimum) 750 billion dollars on Iraq. According to Wikipedia, the accrued costs in Afghanistan to 2011 only total 468 billion. I assert, though it's impossible to prove I admit, that Afghanistan would be nearly stable had that 750 billion from Iraq been poured into it instead.

[afc wimbledon]

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

Kipling


Some things never change

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I remember the training that I went through in basic and in infantry school and the work they did on two fronts to supposedly make it easier on you.

1) Its you or him, and he's willing to kill you.
2) Shooting a person is no different then shooting a target, if we work you every day at shooting that target when the time comes you'll just react
3) If you think about it, if you let your humanity enter the decision, then not only are you dead, but probably a bunch of your friends are dead to.

There was a certain vilification of the enemy as well. When I was in, our enemy was the Warsaw pact and more specifically the Soviets, we studied their war conduct during the second world war, their tactics, we talked about what they were willing to do to their own people. We thought that they were 10 feet tall, relentless and would not only want to kill us, but re-enact what they did in Berlin at the end of the second world war.

But the face of warfare has chanced a great deal, when your fighting a enemy that dresses in civillian clothes, buries IED's and scurries away like a rat, or charges or drives into you with a bomb vest or trucks filled with explosives, its (according to a 3 tour fried of mine,and a few others) you can't trust this situation, nor can you trust anyone that's not your buddy and if things get sticky f$$$ them.

I would expect that this Sergeant when the story is released is a multi term veteran, probably did a spin or two in Iraq, saw some close friends get blown away, and probably had something bad happen recently.

I'm not trying to excuse him, or force an understanding of him, but its important to know.

I suppose the movie, "Platoon" and events like the "May Lay Massacre" in Viet Nam, show the depth to which troops can lose their humanity. However, even in those situations, it was more than one involved, which may have given it more of an "order by a superior officer" or "group mentality" involvement. My first thought, with an individual incident like this, is that the sargeant just "cracked" and went crazy in a psychopathic frenzy.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

Kipling


Some things never change

Yes they sometimes do, as the soldier in the poem is directed to sacrifice himself before losing his humanity, and start shooting the women. At least, that's the way I interpreted it.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Yes they do, as the soldier in the poem is directed to shoot himself than lose his humanity. At least, that's the way I interpreted it.

I think Kipling was making comment on how barbaric it was to fall into the Afghans hands more than anything else, suicide was the better of the options.