CA versus Law

[Bonded]

Hello CP,

I have once again decided to plug the collective brain of this board as it seems there are a lot of well-paid posters with a lot of free time

Anywho, I know at first glance these may seem like completely divergent careers and that I should really know what I would choose between these two, but truth is both require a lot of time to complete, and require a lot of hard work.

This is more of a reconnaissance mission. First, the reasons I find both appealing is the difficulty and intellectual stimulation. However, I am kind of at a crossroads.

Is a CA very restricted into doing audits and accounting or do they move more into strategy and etc as they move up the corporate ladder. Also, is it a flexible designation?

With law, I feel like I am approaching it kind of naively, I just kind of want to know what a day in the life of a lawyer is actually like.

Also, I have heard that law is starting to become a bit saturated, and that future outlook may not be as strong, can anyone speak for or against this in regards to Canada?

Finally, is it a numbers versus word thing?

Thank you again CP

[Caged Great]

My ex was a CA and she dealt with audits amonst other things. It does have mobility. She showed me her pay scale, and after two years of being a CA, she was due 95K+ bonus, and after 10 years, she'll be making over a quarter mil a year.

I don't much about it other that.

[CISSP]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Hello CP,

I have once again decided to plug the collective brain of this board as it seems there are a lot of well-paid posters with a lot of free time

Anywho, I know at first glance these may seem like completely divergent careers and that I should really know what I would choose between these two, but truth is both require a lot of time to complete, and require a lot of hard work.

This is more of a reconnaissance mission. First, the reasons I find both appealing is the difficulty and intellectual stimulation. However, I am kind of at a crossroads.

Is a CA very restricted into doing audits and accounting or do they move more into strategy and etc as they move up the corporate ladder. Also, is it a flexible designation?

With law, I feel like I am approaching it kind of naively, I just kind of want to know what a day in the life of a lawyer is actually like.

Also, I have heard that law is starting to become a bit saturated, and that future outlook may not be as strong, can anyone speak for or against this in regards to Canada?

Finally, is it a numbers versus word thing?

Thank you again CP

My Adivce. (If you can guess from my name, I work for a big 4; I also have a CA but CA is a lame nickname). CA is a very flexible designation. It depends on what you are skilled at and what you want to do. Do you want to work big hours at big four firms for big four Salary (Read: Terrible). You'll get great exposure and great engagements. You'll go to some amazing locales, and some pretty terrible ones.

If you do pursue the CA track, however, you may want to relocated to BC or Ontario. They get alot more variation in their engagements. I do believe that the Calgary practices are quites small and deal primarily with energy and mining.

In terms of Law. Do you have a Law Degree? If not, have you taken the LSATs? If not, are you planning to go to Law School in September (you can't).

If you plan on going to Law School, what schools do you have in mind and what area would you want to practice in (If you go big, you'll do all, if you go boutique you'll focus)

I say. Do what you think you would be best at, and screw saturation. Both are fairly long-term prospects and the situation could change at any moment. What doesn't change is your passion and your talent. That will always be there.

[CISSP]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

My ex was a CA and she dealt with audits amonst other things. It does have mobility. She showed me her pay scale, and after two years of being a CA, she was due 95K+ bonus, and after 10 years, she'll be making over a quarter mil a year.

I don't much about it other that.

What firm was she at? Calgary or other province practices?

[Caged Great]

One thing to consider, CA's make the most money in Alberta of any province. In BC, she would've made 65K before bonuses.

I don't recall her firm, but their building is a block or two SE of the calgary tower

[CISSP]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

One thing to consider, CA's make the most money in Alberta of any province. In BC, she would've made 65K before bonuses.

I don't recall her firm, but their building is a block or two SE of the calgary tower

Sounds like KPMG or Deloitte. Yes compensation is greatest in Alberta, but latitude in engagements is not. If you're looking to make money, Alberta is the go-to province. At one point in my life I considered getting a Law degree and practising there (much like you are now). But if you want a variety of (not just audits) you should look at BC or Ontario. There is greater diversity of work.

[Bonded]

Interesting, thanks for the insight. That is nice to know about the difference in training between Alberta and other provinces.

As for law, I am just trying to decide if I want to do it, and would be applying for 2013.

[CISSP]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Interesting, that is nice to know about the difference in training between Alberta and other provinces.

As for law, I am just trying to decide if I want to do it, and would be applying for 2013.

Okay. My first word of advice.

Study the hell out of LSATs. You want to aim for a 170 to get your pick of all Canadian Schools. (With a good Undergrad GPA). At Minimum you want a 160 If you want the half-decent schools.

Sub 160 and your looking at Thompson River, Manitobia, Sask, or UNB.

Good Schools are UT, Osgoode (York), UBC, Queens, McGill, Dalhousie, UVIC, UofA, Ottawa, Western, UofC. 2nd Tier Schools(Rank the schools in this order)

If you're looking at the states, it's important that you take just one LSAT and score big on it. If you can't go to top 14 schools, I wouldn't bother with the states unless you really want to.

Avoid Cooley, California, Thomas Jefferson, or any other solicitation Law Schools you will get emailed by invariably as you apply for your LSAT (LSAC registration).

If you're looking overseas, remember AUS starts in Feb and applications start in August, and UK has its own ######ed system (With it's own LSATs called the LNATs). UK is a 5 year LLB, AUS is switching to a JD, Canada should be all JD (same thing as a LLB, but different name).

My advice, if you're looking at Law, and you want to pracitce in Canada, stay in Canada. a 2nd tier Canadian Law School is better locally than the best schools in AUS, or UK.

Edit: Wondering what Uni you went to and what was your major (Guessing accounting and UofC or UofA)

[Husky]

Tell you right now go to industry with either. Staying in public practice for either means billable timesheets.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CISSP

Okay. My first word of advice.

Study the hell out of LSATs. You want to aim for a 170 to get your pick of all Canadian Schools. (With a good Undergrad GPA). At Minimum you want a 160 If you want the half-decent schools.

Sub 160 and your looking at Thompson River, Manitobia, Sask, or UNB.

Good Schools are UT, Osgoode (York), UBC, Queens, McGill, Dalhousie, UVIC, UofA, Ottawa, Western, UofC. 2nd Tier Schools(Rank the schools in this order)

If you're looking at the states, it's important that you take just one LSAT and score big on it. If you can't go to top 14 schools, I wouldn't bother with the states unless you really want to.

Avoid Cooley, California, Thomas Jefferson, or any other solicitation Law Schools you will get emailed by invariably as you apply for your LSAT (LSAC registration).

If you're looking overseas, remember AUS starts in Feb and applications start in August, and UK has its own ######ed system (With it's own LSATs called the LNATs). UK is a 5 year LLB, AUS is switching to a JD, Canada should be all JD (same thing as a LLB, but different name).

My advice, if you're looking at Law, and you want to pracitce in Canada, stay in Canada. a 2nd tier Canadian Law School is better locally than the best schools in AUS, or UK.

Edit: Wondering what Uni you went to and what was your major (Guessing accounting and UofC or UofA)

That's generally true for the US, but it really depends on your goals and your financial situation. You are unlikely to find yourself in the "Biglaw" realm unless you go to a top 14, but it can certainly happen (I'm living proof of that). However, Biglaw is a very small portion of the legal market, and it's not meant for a lot of people.

If you go to a lower ranked school your options will be limited in a few ways. There will still be large firms (and contrary to the advice above if you go to a large firm you will not be doing a bit of everything, you will be even more focused than in most boutiques or small practices) but they will be regional as opposed to global or national. Even these may be hard to get in the current market, which leaves you more likely to be pursuing small to medium regional firms, and without ties to the area (or immigration status) it can be a tough road.

The one big thing that may be in your favor at a lower ranked school is cost. If you can attend a lower ranked school on scholarship it may be worth considering. While you'd still face the same market issues your risk has gone down considerably.

Another consideration in the US market is doing a dual degree with a Canadian law school. I'm not sure which schools are currently offering them (I think Michigan State and Ottawa are still paired, as are Detroit and Windsor and Toronto and NYU) but it could be a good way to keep both options open.

The biggest thing you need to ask yourself about going to law school is whether or not the investment of time and money will be worth it. You need to get a realistic sense of what it's like to be lawyer, and the fact is that there are literally hundreds of different types of lawyers so that may be difficult. When I went to law school I had no idea that my field even existed, but here I am.

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions

[anyonebutedmonton]

Originally Posted by CISSP

Okay. My first word of advice.

Study the hell out of LSATs. You want to aim for a 170 to get your pick of all Canadian Schools. (With a good Undergrad GPA). At Minimum you want a 160 If you want the half-decent schools.

Sub 160 and your looking at Thompson River, Manitobia, Sask, or UNB.

Good Schools are UT, Osgoode (York), UBC, Queens, McGill, Dalhousie, UVIC, UofA, Ottawa, Western, UofC. 2nd Tier Schools(Rank the schools in this order)

If you're looking at the states, it's important that you take just one LSAT and score big on it. If you can't go to top 14 schools, I wouldn't bother with the states unless you really want to.

Avoid Cooley, California, Thomas Jefferson, or any other solicitation Law Schools you will get emailed by invariably as you apply for your LSAT (LSAC registration).

If you're looking overseas, remember AUS starts in Feb and applications start in August, and UK has its own ######ed system (With it's own LSATs called the LNATs). UK is a 5 year LLB, AUS is switching to a JD, Canada should be all JD (same thing as a LLB, but different name).

My advice, if you're looking at Law, and you want to pracitce in Canada, stay in Canada. a 2nd tier Canadian Law School is better locally than the best schools in AUS, or UK.

Disclaimer: I go to U of C law...

I agree with you on the studying hard for the LSAT in order to keep all options open. Where I somewhat disagree is in your ranking of Canadian schools. I am of the honest belief that any of the established Canadian law schools (don't know much about Thompson River at this point) will give you a great education and leave you with pretty similar job prospects. Just look at the different firms website and see where the lawyers are graduating from.

I think if you decide law is for you, ask yourself where you want to practice, and go to a school nearby. It may be different on Bay Street, but being close to the firms where you want to work gives you a huge advantage. The fact is that you need to do well at any school in order to get a position. It's just a lot easier as an average student to obtain an articling position if you have made those personal connections with lawyers in the city, which is something that is difficult to do from across the country.

As for the CA route, it appears to give you an awesome platform to jump from later in your career. Many of the CFO's in this city are CAs so there is obviously some flexibility as you go through your career. Keep an eye on the CA/CMA merger talks as it might be a bit dicey to start a CA at this time...

[troutman]

Be a dentist.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by anyonebutedmonton

Disclaimer: I go to U of C law...

I agree with you on the studying hard for the LSAT in order to keep all options open. Where I somewhat disagree is in your ranking of Canadian schools. I am of the honest belief that any of the established Canadian law schools (don't know much about Thompson River at this point) will give you a great education and leave you with pretty similar job prospects. Just look at the different firms website and see where the lawyers are graduating from.

I think if you decide law is for you, ask yourself where you want to practice, and go to a school nearby. It may be different on Bay Street, but being close to the firms where you want to work gives you a huge advantage. The fact is that you need to do well at any school in order to get a position. It's just a lot easier as an average student to obtain an articling position if you have made those personal connections with lawyers in the city, which is something that is difficult to do from across the country.

As for the CA route, it appears to give you an awesome platform to jump from later in your career. Many of the CFO's in this city are CAs so there is obviously some flexibility as you go through your career. Keep an eye on the CA/CMA merger talks as it might be a bit dicey to start a CA at this time...

I'd agree that any of the established Canadian schools will give you a great education, but the top 2-3 schools (Osgoode, UT and I guess McGill, although I"m not sure about that one) are definitely well ahead of the pack in terms of job prospects on a more global scale. Grads from those schools are sought after by the leading global firms, the Skaddens of the world, as opposed to just large local firms. Although depending on your goals that might not mean anything.

[troutman]

I was out for drinks with a group of CAs about my age, a few months ago. I was staggered how much $ they make compared to me, and I do pretty well.

[fredr123]

I recently moved from a medium-sized general practice firm in Calgary to a small boutique firm in Calgary. The difference in the way things are done, how we practice and how we generally enjoy life is quite noticeable. My wife commented the other day that I haven't seem this relaxed or laid back in quite some time.

It wasn't until I finished law school and really started looking around that all the profession had to offer that I realized how varied the practice of law can be. I see guys at my current firm that started out with all the big national firms and hear their war stories, then I look at all the people I know who worked in government or in small towns or in house and it's amazing how diverse your practice can be. I don't know a lot about being an accountant, so I can't really say if there is the same kind of breadth of experience in that profession as well. Just realize there is much more to being a lawyer than arguing for a life sentence in front of a judge or slaving away late into the night on a weekend working on a multi-million dollar hostile take over bid.

[Titan]

I found the Introduction to the Study of Law by Waddams to be helpful as to what law school is like.

Good on you to ask about it before jumping in.

I would not do it again if I had the choice, personally.

Also, within Canada, all the law shools are pretty much the same. If you know you want to be on Bay street then U of T and Osgoode are beneficial because you can network and there are sessionals that teach there. Other than that, decide where you want to live and what work you want to do and then decide what you want out of law school.

The most amazing thing to me about law school is how irrelevant it is the day after you start articles. Unless you are shooting for the stars where they care about things like that it just doesn't matter in the day to day practice, in Calgary at least, imho.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Titan

I found the Introduction to the Study of Law by Waddams to be helpful as to what law school is like.

Good on you to ask about it before jumping in.

I would not do it again if I had the choice, personally.

Also, within Canada, all the law shools are pretty much the same. If you know you want to be on Bay street then U of T and Osgoode are beneficial because you can network and there are sessionals that teach there. Other than that, decide where you want to live and what work you want to do and then decide what you want out of law school.

The most amazing thing to me about law school is how irrelevant it is the day after you start articles. Unless you are shooting for the stars where they care about things like that it just doesn't matter in the day to day practice, in Calgary at least, imho.

I think law school really only applies after graduation if you're looking to go into academics, otherwise it has virtually no application to practicing.

[anyonebutedmonton]

Originally Posted by valo403

I think law school really only applies after graduation if you're looking to go into academics, otherwise it has virtually no application to practicing.

As a current law student, I don't know if this is a good thing, or a bad thing...

[troutman]

Originally Posted by anyonebutedmonton

As a current law student, I don't know if this is a good thing, or a bad thing...

Law School is not very practical, but it does train you in a certain way of thinking, reading and writing.

I learned how to read large volumes of material efficiently. I learned to write accurately and concisely. I learned how to approach a problem from many sides.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by fredr123

I recently moved from a medium-sized general practice firm in Calgary to a small boutique firm in Calgary. The difference in the way things are done, how we practice and how we generally enjoy life is quite noticeable. My wife commented the other day that I haven't seem this relaxed or laid back in quite some time.

It wasn't until I finished law school and really started looking around that all the profession had to offer that I realized how varied the practice of law can be. I see guys at my current firm that started out with all the big national firms and hear their war stories, then I look at all the people I know who worked in government or in small towns or in house and it's amazing how diverse your practice can be. I don't know a lot about being an accountant, so I can't really say if there is the same kind of breadth of experience in that profession as well. Just realize there is much more to being a lawyer than arguing for a life sentence in front of a judge or slaving away late into the night on a weekend working on a multi-million dollar hostile take over bid.

This is also true of accounting. I started at KPMG with aspirations of becoming a partner and working 75 hour work weeks. Then I wanted to go the route of being the CFO of a large public company. I left public practice once my time was in and I went to a small private company as a contractor. After a year I signed on to be the Controller, with my sites set on becoming the CFO at one point.

I never thought I'd be at a small, private company, but for me it is the best fit. For others staying in public practice was the right move. There is so much variety in types of work you can do, that you won't ever be pigeon holed. For me I have a job that allows me to golf and travel almost as much as I want, while paying me well. The CA designation is very versatile.

I'm guessing I could write an almost identical story if I had gone into law. It all depends on what you want to do with the rest of your life.