France says NON to EU constitution

[Flame Of Liberty]

French voters made the best decision even if it was for the wrong reasons.

Thank god!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4593477.stm

[MarchHare]

1. That should be "Vive la France!" not 'viva' which is Spanish.
2. Can I ask why you're so opposed to the EU constitution?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by MarchHare@May 30 2005, 03:00 PM
Can I ask why you're so opposed to the EU constitution?

I am against because the constitution is a huge step towards more centralization, bureaucracy and socialism. It gives more power to central planners in Brussels, it kills any remains of ideas the EU was originally built upon (free flow of capital, people, goods and services). There’s much more but I think you get the idea.

[Agamemnon]

Definitely a step backwards, for the EU and France.

France has/had a chance to play a leading role in this new federation. The No vote will definitely degrade France's ability to influence European events.

Sounds like many nations are going to try and ratify it anyway, so I'm not sure if this is completely over yet. We'll see if/how it's resurrected.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@May 30 2005, 03:38 PM
Definitely a step backwards, for the EU and France.

France has/had a chance to play a leading role in this new federation. The No vote will definitely degrade France's ability to influence European events.

Anything that makes the fossilic weasel Chirac and his protectionist corporate state less influential is a good thing.

It is pretty easy to see that new EU countries along with candidate countries such as Romania refuse French "social" model and favor less collectivist anglo-saxon model.

This referendum already spelled the end for Raffarin and it may be the end for Chirac as well. People like these two, along with Sarkozy and de Villepin will not have a leading role anymore.

Which is a great thing. Less influential France is good news for the rest of the EU.

[Thunderball]

To me, anything that will cause proud, historic nations to be assimilated into a whole is a bad thing. The EU is in danger of turning Europe into a multicultural wasteland, which to me is a travesty. I like the idea of many diverse nations holding on to their traditions. I also find it interesting that the (predominantly leftist) politicians seem to love this concept, while the common man rightly sees the cause for concern and says no.

Polls seem to indicate that Netherlands and Britain are going to trash the idea too when it hits their polls.

To me the EU should be a NAFTA-type agreement, and an allowance for free cross-border movement, nothing more, not yet at least.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Thunderball@May 30 2005, 07:54 PM
To me, anything that will cause proud, historic nations to be assimilated into a whole is a bad thing. The EU is in danger of turning Europe into a multicultural wasteland, which to me is a travesty. I like the idea of many diverse nations holding on to their traditions. I also find it interesting that the (predominantly leftist) politicians seem to love this concept, while the common man rightly sees the cause for concern and says no.

Polls seem to indicate that Netherlands and Britain are going to trash the idea too when it hits their polls.

To me the EU should be a NAFTA-type agreement, and an allowance for free cross-border movement, nothing more, not yet at least.

The leftists were against it for economic reasons. France (and several other Euro's) have somewhat bloated pension/welfare systems. I think some of these would have to begin to be scaled back to make the European economy more 'efficient'.

Also, allowing total worker migration was something that a lot of Western EU members aren't fans of. They foresee legions of Latvians and Turks invading to take all the lower paying jobs (and, since many of them are well-educated, the mid/high jobs as well).

I'm sure that the Dutch will vote against it now that the French have. Why not?

Many pro-EU officials claim that this won't slow down integration... I'd like to know what they think _will_ happen though.

[Wranglers110]

Really ironic, since I've always viewed the EU/EC/CSC as France's attempt to project themselves over Europe.

This development shouldn't be surprising as Mitterand could have attested to...

I guess this spells the end for Raffarin.

[FlamesAddiction]

So now they'll make some ammendments and the French will approve it. It's just going to take more time now.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Wranglers110@May 31 2005, 02:09 AM
Really ironic, since I've always viewed the EU/EC/CSC as France's attempt to project themselves over Europe.

This development shouldn't be surprising as Mitterand could have attested to...

I guess this spells the end for Raffarin.

For France-the-State, you're right. But in this (rare) case, France-the-People got to decide the outcome. It's probably not that this measure would _never_ have passed in France, but rather a product of the current political climate there.

This referendum already spelled the end for Raffarin and it may be the end for Chirac as well. People like these two, along with Sarkozy and de Villepin will not have a leading role anymore.

In sounds like one of those two will be Raffarin's replacement.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@May 31 2005, 02:30 AM
So now they'll make some ammendments and the French will approve it. It's just going to take more time now.

Sure, but if those amendments exclude the right for EU workers to migrate, then that's a big 'efficiency' aspect removed from the Constitution, and potentially a necessary one if the EU wants to be a big economic heavy-weight.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+May 31 2005, 03:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ May 31 2005, 03:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FlamesAddiction@May 31 2005, 02:30 AM
So now they'll make some ammendments and the French will approve it. It's just going to take more time now.

Sure, but if those amendments exclude the right for EU workers to migrate, then that's a big 'efficiency' aspect removed from the Constitution, and potentially a necessary one if the EU wants to be a big economic heavy-weight. [/b][/quote]
They'll probably make something up that looks like it excludes the right for EU workers to migrate, but they'll use their sneaky politician skills to leave loopholes that the average voter won't understand. Then they'll rush the referendum in hopes that no one catches on.

At least that is what happens on this side of the ocean. Maybe French people actually vote carefully.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+May 31 2005, 03:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ May 31 2005, 03:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Sure, but if those amendments exclude the right for EU workers to migrate, then that's a big 'efficiency' aspect removed from the Constitution, and potentially a necessary one if the EU wants to be a big economic heavy-weight.

They'll probably make something up that looks like it excludes the right for EU workers to migrate, but they'll use their sneaky politician skills to leave loopholes that the average voter won't understand. Then they'll rush the referendum in hopes that no one catches on.

At least that is what happens on this side of the ocean. Maybe French people actually vote carefully.[/b][/quote]
How soon can they really hold another referendum though? Probably nearly a year...

It's also a question of how long it would take to draft and ratify the 'amended' Constitution.

Will the French rally around this No vote in a (misguided) attempt to strike out on their own? If the government decides, hell no. If the people decide...

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@May 30 2005, 09:50 PM
Also, allowing total worker migration was something that a lot of Western EU members aren't fans of. They foresee legions of Latvians and Turks invading to take all the lower paying jobs (and, since many of them are well-educated, the mid/high jobs as well).

Turkey is not in the EU. French voters who voted against the constitution are against Turkish membership as well. Most people would agree that Turkey has almost zero chance of becoming a member of the EU anytime soon. Obviously people in current EU countries are against it. However, now that the constitution is not ratified, EU will be run according to the treaty from Nice. This treaty was designed for 27 member countries maximum. Keep in mind that EU has 25 member countries, and next two in line are Bulgaria and Romania. Thus, Turkey (along with Croatia) is the odd man out.

Another thing, I find it laughable when the French are scared of legions of eastern Europeans. There was a lot of fear mongering in the UK before it opened its labor market to new member countries. And guess what, there were no legions of easterners invading to take all jobs. And let’s not forget, France is much less attractive country to work in compared to the UK.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty+May 31 2005, 01:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame Of Liberty @ May 31 2005, 01:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@May 30 2005, 09:50 PM
Also, allowing total worker migration was something that a lot of Western EU members aren't fans of. They foresee legions of Latvians and Turks invading to take all the lower paying jobs (and, since many of them are well-educated, the mid/high jobs as well).

Turkey is not in the EU. French voters who voted against the constitution are against Turkish membership as well. Most people would agree that Turkey has almost zero chance of becoming a member of the EU anytime soon. Obviously people in current EU countries are against it. However, now that the constitution is not ratified, EU will be run according to the treaty from Nice. This treaty was designed for 27 member countries maximum. Keep in mind that EU has 25 member countries, and next two in line are Bulgaria and Romania. Thus, Turkey (along with Croatia) is the odd man out.

Another thing, I find it laughable when the French are scared of legions of eastern Europeans. There was a lot of fear mongering in the UK before it opened its labor market to new member countries. And guess what, there were no legions of easterners invading to take all jobs. And let’s not forget, France is much less attractive country to work in compared to the UK. [/b][/quote]
I think most signs point to eventual successful Turkish accession to the EU.

France is a great place to work compared to Latvia, Bulgaria, and Romania.

[Rubber Ducky]

Now I may be off-base here, but I thought that the EU Constitution was a stepping stone to creating a 'power' to compete with the States economically and financially.

And the French, who have obviously no love for the States, have torpedoed that chance.

Seems like they shot themselves in the foot in order to get back at their own politicians.

And in the meantime, we're left with one super-power running amok in the world.

Interesting.

[tjinaz]

This is going to get much worse for France. Blair is next in line for the EU presidency and he will be pushing (along with the new Eastern European members) for a more open economy that will play right into the French fears. France cannot maintain their beloved bloated social model. The longer they wait to open their economy the further they fall behind. Already the majority of their high end talent is leaving for greener pastures in the UK or US. Competition is a reality they are not prepared to deal with.

[Wranglers110]

Man, America's favorite French politician, Dominique de Villepin was appointed Prime Minister in the wake of the non. Now we care even less about their opinions.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I think most signs point to eventual successful Turkish accession to the EU.[/b]

What signs? And what does eventual successful Turkish accession mean? Eventually in 25 years? In 25 years there will be no EU as we know it. But if you talk about, lets say this decade, it is not bloody likely that Turkey gets in. Public outcry will not allow it.

<!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon
France is a great place to work compared to Latvia, Bulgaria, and Romania. [/quote]

Yes, but the number of eastern Europeans willing to work abroad is much smaller than fearmongers in the west have expected. If you dig up statistical numbers you will see that. For example, Sweden opened its labour market to new member countries. How many Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians or Slovenes do you think work there? Language is a big detriment, people in the east predominantly learn english, not french/swedish or whatever. Even Germany is more popular than France when it comes to employment.. Therefore, the small number of people willing to work abroad is going to work in the UK, Ireland or Germany, not in France. And of course, you can make better money in the UK than in France.

Put it all together and you will see that there number of eastern Europeans eager to work in France is pretty small, almost insignificant. The French should be more worried about legions of unemployed middle easterners and north africans already living in french slums. If anything, workers from eastern Europe would save their falling social system because they would actually work and pay huge taxes while they would not be getting any benefits.

Also, can you explain to us why do you think that strong French leadership is a good thing for the EU?

[Agamemnon]

What signs? And what does eventual successful Turkish accession mean? Eventually in 25 years? In 25 years there will be no EU as we know it. But if you talk about, lets say this decade, it is not bloody likely that Turkey gets in. Public outcry will not allow it.

Sure, but Rome wasn't built in a day. When you're talking about the creation of economically and politically integrated supra-states, things take decades, not months. Just like when I say 'the EU will be an economic heavyweight', that isn't meant to say 'watch out for them in '06', it's a long-term prediction.

As for the 'signs', well, Turkey is already heavily involved in reforms for EU accession, and has been a candidate since '99. I think it will happen, sooner or later, despite French opposition.

Also, can you explain to us why do you think that strong French leadership is a good thing for the EU?

Where did I say that? Strong French leadership is a good thing for France. I assume you're referring to this;

France has/had a chance to play a leading role in this new federation. The No vote will definitely degrade France's ability to influence European events.

I don't really see myself as stating what you're implying.