Ongoing dispute between Canada and UAE

[jolinar of malkshor]

Canadian troops to pull out from Dubai military base early over disagreement

Canadian troops will be pulling out early from a not-so-secret military base in the United Arab Emirates after failing to reach an agreement with the government there for its continued use.

Camp Mirage in Dubai has been an important staging ground for the Canadian Forces mission in Afghanistan but it's also become a pawn in a dispute over access to Canada's airspace.

The UAE has been lobbying Ottawa to get additional landing rights for its two major commercial airlines and it's previously been reported that there is a link between those efforts and Canada's lease for the Middle East military base. Its existence is supposed to be kept under wraps for national security reasons, but Camp Mirage is a poorly kept secret


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Can...#ixzz12M4d5xKg

MacKay barred from UAE airspace as diplomatic climate turns 'frosty'

Souring diplomatic relations between Canada and the United Arab Emirates on Monday forced a military flight carrying Canada’s top defence brass on a six-hour detour to Rome.
A quarrel over landing rights in Canada for the UAE’s two national carriers and the use of a logistics base in Dubai that supports Canadian combat operations in landlocked Afghanistan escalated sharply when a C-17 jumbo transport carrying Defence Minister Peter MacKay, General Walter Natynczyk and Veterans Affairs Minister Jean-Pierre Blackburn was denied the right to land and ordered to stay clear of UAE airspace.


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/business...#ixzz12M5J746X


UAE lobbies against Canada at United Nations

The UAE lobbied against Canada's bid to win a seat on the United Nations Security Council because of its anti-Arab policies and protectionism, a UAE official told Gulf News.
When asked whether the UAE lobbied against Canada’s bid to get a seat on the Security Council, the official confirmed and said; “Look at Canada’s record in the General Assembly. When it comes to Arab issues and particularly the Palestinian rights, Ottawa obviously did not deserve Arab support or international support.”

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/ge...tions-1.696413



I think Canada needs to stick to it's guns on this and not mix geopolitical decisions with trade issues. The UAE is acting like a spoiled little brat. They need to remember that they are not dealing with a dictatorship here and there are proceedures that need to be seperate and they need to be followed.

[HeartsOfFire]

Spoiler!

Anti-Arab policies? Whatever do you mean?

[sa226]

It is kind of interesting the difference in opinions on this. I'm certainly no expert on the issue but I fully support the government holding its ground.

The whole thing is over Canada not allowing Emirates to add frequency in flights through Canada. It starts with a misunderstanding of good ol competition. People think that any competition is good but with Emirates it is not on fair ground. How does a country of 8 million operate an airline with 145 aircraft? (13 A380's with orders for more)

Their goal in adding routes is to funnel hub traffic away from the established hub cities like Toronto and other European cities through aggressive expansion and predatory pricing. They can afford to do it because they have a large amount of capital coming from other sources.

I think it is a no-brainer for the Government to not allow them added routes, but I keep seeing articles saying otherwise. I also read that several of the Premiers wrote letters to Ottawa urging them to reconsider.

Again, I don't understand the whole issue but something doesn't add up.

[CaptainCrunch]

Between the UN vote and this, Canada has taken enough slaps in the face from the Middle East.

Thier idea of Anti Arab policies is any kind of support for Israel. In terms of this trade war, to me its manufactured by the UAE who want opened up flight rights to Canada while not giving us anything substantial in return.

I've said my peace about the UN before, but I think its time that Canada reminds the world about how much we've sacrificed for that body. Canada should cut back on its donations to the UN, we should withdraw completely from their Kyoto environmental replacement policy and further reduce troops and manpower going to the UN.

In terms of foreign aid to the Middle East, we need to cut off any foreign aid to middle eastern nations, and maybe refocus that gained money on better nations. I mean frankly you didn't see these nations lining up to help whenever a natural disaster hits this country.

Whats the point, the UN as a body is the gang that couldn't shoot straight. Peace Keeping is an obsolete practice without peace enforcement. This is a body that regularly elects the worst of the worst in terms of human rights or woman's rights to head up those bodies, then they elect Portugal a nearly bankrupt country thats probably going to get bailed out by some middle eastern country to the council.

I blame Stephen Harper for wanting that Security Council seat in the first place. He should have passed that "honor by".

[mykalberta]

Harper is right to stand his ground against the UAE.

[Bigtime]

As already pointed out, Emirates does not operate on a level playing field against other airlines. Many of the EU countries opened up their skies to them and now their large carriers are sounding the rallying cry and trying to get their governments to do something about it (France, Germany, England, and others).

Emirates has dangled this carrot of service to YYC, YUL, and YVR if they get the additional rights. Sounds pretty cool huh? You can hop on an Emirates jet with hot FA's and fly non-stop to Dubai. What's the catch? Due to their predatory pricing (thanks to many factors they don't disclose unlike other public airlines) a city like YYC would probably lose flights to Europe that are currently being served by:

-Air Canada (Frankfurt and London Heathrow)
-British Airways (London Heathrow)
-Lufthansa (Frankfurt)
-KLM (Amsterdam)

So for the addition of one more non-stop intercontinental in the YYC network we would probably lose most of these existing services. Companies that are playing on an even field and competing with one another.

Or you could go and hunt down the real aviation websites (where pilots, FA's, and mechanics post) and read some of the stories of the grime that is just underneath Emirates squeeky clean appearance.

I'm glad we are standing up to them. We can also give 12 months notice that we are ending the bi-lateral (which includes overfly rights) and that would royally screw their operations into the USA.

[CaptainCrunch]

So how much of a lever is the bi-lateral agreement, if thats revoked or ended does that pretty much end their use of any NA Canadian hubs?

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So how much of a lever is the bi-lateral agreement, if thats revoked or ended does that pretty much end their use of any NA Canadian hubs?

Right now the UAE is allowed 6x weekly into Canada. Etihad Airlines (based out of Abu Dhabi) took 3 of those, then Emirates (Dubai based) jumped on the remaining 3 and they are both utilizing them out of YYZ (Toronto).

When originally offered the 6x weekly service Emirates said no they wanted more, that was when big brother Etihad stepped in and took 3, and Emirates then grabbed the remaining.

If we killed the bilateral they are out, we could also exercise our right to deny overflight of our airspace. This would absolutely destroy most of their flights into the USA. We got in a spat with Russia a couple of years ago, and they denied us overflights of Russian airspace, once we did the same to them it choked off all their flights to the USA so they quickly made up.

[CaptainCrunch]

Sounds like a powerful lever. But it would probably hurt our tourism industry more then theirs.

[Bigtime]

Would it though? The majority of our tourism is still out of the states and all our European and Asian visitors.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Screw the U.A.E. and screw the U.N. with their phony Kyoto crap and their global governance aims....

[HPLovecraft]

Screw everything!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

Would it though? The majority of our tourism is still out of the states and all our European and Asian visitors.

I think there's always the possibility, it would be interesting to know. But your right, its not like it would effect Japanese and Chinese tourism numbers.

[sa226]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

As already pointed out, Emirates does not operate on a level playing field against other airlines. Many of the EU countries opened up their skies to them and now their large carriers are sounding the rallying cry and trying to get their governments to do something about it (France, Germany, England, and others).

Emirates has dangled this carrot of service to YYC, YUL, and YVR if they get the additional rights. Sounds pretty cool huh? You can hop on an Emirates jet with hot FA's and fly non-stop to Dubai. What's the catch? Due to their predatory pricing (thanks to many factors they don't disclose unlike other public airlines) a city like YYC would probably lose flights to Europe that are currently being served by:

-Air Canada (Frankfurt and London Heathrow)
-British Airways (London Heathrow)
-Lufthansa (Frankfurt)
-KLM (Amsterdam)

So for the addition of one more non-stop intercontinental in the YYC network we would probably lose most of these existing services. Companies that are playing on an even field and competing with one another.

Or you could go and hunt down the real aviation websites (where pilots, FA's, and mechanics post) and read some of the stories of the grime that is just underneath Emirates squeeky clean appearance.

I'm glad we are standing up to them. We can also give 12 months notice that we are ending the bi-lateral (which includes overfly rights) and that would royally screw their operations into the USA.

This is what I don't understand, it seems fairly straight forward that it would be a bad idea to let them increase frequency. Most people who have taken interest in the issue seem to agree.

Yet I read about the Premiers of AB, BC and PQ I think writing letters to Ottawa to change their stance and negotiate.

I also read an article this morning (I can't seem to find it now) that challenged the issue on the side of the UAE as well.

[Bigtime]

IHMO I don't think the premiers of AB, BC, and PQ are looking at this seriously. They are seeing "sexy airline service direct to Dubai", and since Dubai is the "it" place (though less so now after the financial crisis they had there in which Abu Dhabi bailed them out) they are looking at it with blinders.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by sa226

This is what I don't understand, it seems fairly straight forward that it would be a bad idea to let them increase frequency. Most people who have taken interest in the issue seem to agree.

Yet I read about the Premiers of AB, BC and PQ I think writing letters to Ottawa to change their stance and negotiate.

I also read an article this morning (I can't seem to find it now) that challenged the issue on the side of the UAE as well.

What do you expect from "special ED".

[mykalberta]

I cant speak for other provinces but the Premier of Alberta is an idiot.

The EU looked at the Emirates and saw an easy trading party with money to burn to buy a shat tonne of Airbus aircraft to keep unionized Europeans employed in France, Germany, Spain etc.

Canada doesnt have that need. We also dont need the oil that the Emirates as whole have as our oil companies for the most part dont have a large presence there. European oil interest in the region is high.

Emirates business plan is very simple, you increase ASMs and cut fares until other airlines cut service then you cut ASMs and increase fares. The only difference is other companies have to worry about things like the balance sheet while Emirates does not. Its like the Yankees and baseball. Ownership with almost unlimited funds playing against teams with budgets. Is it illegal what they do, no, but in the Airline game the small market teams can restrict access to their ballpark if they want.

Canada's position on this has and always will be very simple. If there exists a viable market between two points then Canada will increase frequency, As it stands the market between Canada as a whole and Dubai is less than 200 person / day which isnt enough to fund profitable service. It is enough for Emirates who would sell connections to Africa, Asia, India and that is what troubles Air Canada. Their direct flights to India and Asia from Toronto would be put in jeopardy if Emirates was allowed to increase service.

[Bigtime]

^^^ Very well said.

[SebC]

Very informative thread. Thanks guys!

[greaser4life]

This government's foreign policy is out of touch with the rest of the world. Being the USA's lapdog will not get you anywhere. No surprise that Portugal and Germany have permanant UN Security Council seats (and NOT CANADA). Just imagine, Conservatives actually managed to piss off a very moderate Arab country in the UAE and an important ally. I can't believe that people still vote for these people. The country is taking steps backwards on many levels.

Countries like India and China voted for Portugal instead of Canada because of Harper's Foreign policy which might as well be written by the Bushes.