Life after University...

[Phanuthier]

So... a year ago, I finished my university undergrad degree and in half a year, I'm going to finish my second degree. Now, when I finished my undergrad degree, it honestly scared the crap out of me as I always saw my end goal to be university education. Scared enough that I decided to keep on going to school, cause I really wasn't sure what else to do and I wasn't overly enthusiastic about the job offer options I had. I know many of my friends who just finished their degree's, they're somewhat scared and at a loss of "what now?" I know a few people here on CP that have/had that issue as well.

The obvious answer of "what now" has been / will be to get a job, but it seems awfully shallow to just go out and work for the next 40 years without really working towards anything, or at least anything definite. Obviously, there are positions and responsibilities I would like to have in my career, but they all seem attainable and not something that I find to be a something I'm going to really have to work towards, and I guess the lack of challenge scares me that there isn't really anything I am challenged to.

Anyone else here have the same issue? If so, what did you do about it?

[GreenLantern]

I just graduated this spring and I find a lot of companies want someone with years of experience.. as a recent grad.. hard for me to have this experience.

I am looking at returning in the fall for my masters, not many people look at a four year degree as much of anything these days it seems. Either that or I am in the wrong province

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

I just graduated this spring and I find a lot of companies want someone with years of experience.. as a recent grad.. hard for me to have this experience.

I am looking at returning in the fall for my masters, not many people look at a four year degree as much of anything these days it seems. Either that or I am in the wrong province

yes... that was another reason i went on to furthur education, i.e. a masters... I have no desires to get phD though, ever. If I go on, at best post-masters in my field, or an MBA.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

I just graduated this spring and I find a lot of companies want someone with years of experience.. as a recent grad.. hard for me to have this experience.

I am looking at returning in the fall for my masters, not many people look at a four year degree as much of anything these days it seems. Either that or I am in the wrong province

I have a year left on my CS degree , which will probably be stretched over 2-3 due to baby arriving in ~3 months. Rather than my normal 'summer' job search this year, I instead have been focusing on jobs in my fields or that might give me a bit of experience to combat this.

Didn't exactly pan out the way I wanted to with the current economy but I am hopeful I can at least land a Tech Support type position before Fall semester.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Obviously, there are positions and responsibilities I would like to have in my career, but they all seem attainable and not something that I find to be a something I'm going to really have to work towards, and I guess the lack of challenge scares me that there isn't really anything I am challenged to.

If you are the time of person that wants to be challenged - it's easy to find. Some people want jobs that are easy piecy so they can focus on other parts of their life. Others want jobs that offer constant challenge. Neither is right or wrong.

Set high goals - and if you reach them - set higher ones.

And if you don't find that fulfilling - figure out what does make you happy and do that instead.

But I would suggest it's all not nearly as easy as it may appear to be when you're in school. Just when you think things are going a long tickety boo - life has a way of jumping up and giving you a stiff crosscheck right to the mush.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If you are the time of person that wants to be challenged - it's easy to find. Some people want jobs that are easy piecy so they can focus on other parts of their life. Others want jobs that offer constant challenge. Neither is right or wrong.

Set high goals - and if you reach them - set higher ones.

And if you don't find that fulfilling - figure out what does make you happy and do that instead.

But I would suggest it's all not nearly as easy as it may appear to be when you're in school. Just when you think things are going a long tickety boo - life has a way of jumping up and giving you a stiff crosscheck right to the mush.

Yup, definately Jiri. I spent a bit of time last week talking to different types of people I graduated with to get different viewpoints, and there are a few things I am looking for in life. I've always been somewhat of a classic goal-oriented person, although I would really like to change that and focus more on personal relationships - namely, friends and find a great girl to marry. I really don't want to ever have to be in the situation where I have to sacrifice things like friends/family for my career. This will be a particularly difficult challenge given the personality type I have and the hours expected to work in the field I'm going to be in.

Anyways, one of the things I talked about with one of my friends is the seperation between being a 'A' quality person, and a 'B', 'C', 'D' and so on. At this stage, I don't think I am a 'A' quality person and there are somethings to work on, so for sure I don't think I'm at the end of the line on being the best. And, I do fully plan on working towards being a 'A' quality person, where a 'A' type person is someone who is intelligent, capable, well-rounded, able to see things both small and big, and has the self-initiative. A type of person quality top companies like a Google will hire.

Moreso, there are things outside of my life I am looking or would like to work on. Sports, a family, materialistic goals...

But, in the short term... graduating still scares the hell out of me. Despite knowing that there are goals out I have, I guess they arn't so much definite or things I really see as something I "work towards" whereas in school, there is a specific project or exam you work towards.

Ok I'm just rambling... (obviously this is something I spent A LOT of time thinking about)

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

The obvious answer of "what now" has been / will be to get a job, but it seems awfully shallow to just go out and work for the next 40 years without really working towards anything, or at least anything definite. Obviously, there are positions and responsibilities I would like to have in my career, but they all seem attainable and not something that I find to be a something I'm going to really have to work towards, and I guess the lack of challenge scares me that there isn't really anything I am challenged to.

Anyone else here have the same issue? If so, what did you do about it?

Well you're touching on some fundamental issues from what I can tell. Issues about values and your identity. This will probably be TL : DR for most people, I'll warn ya now.

I think I understand where you are coming from. I worked for five years as software developer and I could see having a long career in that field and toiling along but it just didn't seem like I was doing anything, making any sort of difference. It seemed like I was making my boss richer, and the oil and gas industry more productive (working on oil and gas software.) Neither of those really seemed like great accomplishments to me and the compensation although decent didn't seem to offset the amount of time I had to spend at work, and the ridiculous lack of vacation offered. I knew that at times I was being billed out at 3 times what I was getting paid, the exploitation was quite obvious. Perhaps if I had gotten a dream job in my field I wouldn't have had so many issues with my job and wouldn't have quit work to go back to school. Or perhaps working as a contractor would have lessened the issues I had with exploitation and working for a boss, the inefficiency of the office, the overabundance of paperwork and administration.

But I quit work to take a liberal arts degree. I was interested in discovering what the great thinkers of all time had to say about how to live the "good life." I thought the philosophy dept would answer those types of questions but they were more interested in talking about questions that couldn't be answered and how well you debated and argued. I ended up in the humanites dept where we read lots of classic literature, classic philosophy and newer philosophy of the last 150 years that our philosophy dept didn't really focus on. I guess you could call it in a way a look at the history of ideas.

I guess my view now is that we are socialized to believe that the "good life" is a good career, some fancy toys, a nice house, car, a trophy wife, a dog and 1.5 kids. To that end you see almost everybody in University trying to get an education in order to secure a job. Having had a career type job I know that it is not all that we are led to believe. Sounds like you are starting to realize that. Unless your interests happen to coincide with your job, I think its hard to most of us to say that our career fulfills us. I think for most of us it is our relationships that fulfill us. I think some get great fulfillment out of their jobs but I think those who do have jobs where they help people or create things. Teachers, doctors, counselors, as examples of helpers. Artists of all sorts as creators. Some people want to change the world, some people are content helping a single person. I think the commonality there is that a lot of us want to make some sort of tangible difference in the world, something more than just existing as a small cog in the great capitalist machine that just keeps chugging along. It doesn't help that we are often identified as our function in society, as our job.

What do you do? "I'm a XXXXX". Our identities become closely associated with our jobs similar to how your identity in university may have become closely associated with your major. This can be problematic for anybody who doesn't want their identity to be associated with our jobs. I didn't think of myself of a programmer, and in fact I had issues with a lot of the stereotypes surrounding that identity.

Most of us have different values. At some point most of us realize that we have different opinions from our parents and a lot of society. Despite this we've inherited a bunch of values and opinions from both. Lots of people start off on a career path because their father was a XXXXXX, or because their family encouraged them to head along this or that career path. Unfortunately I think we're being asked to make a choice (at 18 or so, post-high school) where we don't really even know ourselves yet. I think we discover ourselves in our late teens and in our twenties. So how on earth are we supposed to know what kind of job we would like or would fulfill us when we haven't tried most of them out?

Here I am in my late 20's and I'm soon going to be in your position after graduating with my BA. What have I found out about myself? I've discovered through working a variety of jobs and through school that I value certain things and hate doing certain types of jobs. In particular I value creative endeavors like books, movies, etc the products of human society and I value helping others and learning. So I tend to think creating something would satisfy me, or helping others learn would satisfy me. So writing and teaching are two areas I'm interested in.

So I guess my advice is to go out and live and experiment, try a bunch of different jobs, learn a bunch of different things, experience different cultures and ideas. You'll discover yourself, learn about what you value, like and dislike. Based on that you may have a better idea about what would fulfill you.

Hopefully that was on topic.

[Jake]

I graduated this spring and applied to about 15 jobs in my field, and only got 1 interview (which fortunatly led to a job), despite having a decent work history and a 3.96 GPA. I've had my resume looked at by a few different people, including my universities career services, and nothing seems to be wrong there. For a while there I was thinking I had wasted my last 4 years... I'd like to see the new president provide incentives for hiring new graduates.

It seems like these days many jobs value experience in the field over a formal education. I used to think the phrase "its not what you know, its who you know" was a bit of BS, but now I know there is a lot more to it than I previously thought.

For the next year I'll be working. In fall 2010 hopefully I will start a phD or DVM program.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I guess my view now is that we are socialized to believe that the "good life" is a good career, some fancy toys, a nice house, car, a trophy wife, a dog and 1.5 kids. To that end you see almost everybody in University trying to get an education in order to secure a job. Having had a career type job I know that it is not all that we are led to believe. Sounds like you are starting to realize that. Unless your interests happen to coincide with your job, I think its hard to most of us to say that our career fulfills us. I think for most of us it is our relationships that fulfill us. I think some get great fulfillment out of their jobs but I think those who do have jobs where they help people or create things. Teachers, doctors, counselors, as examples of helpers. Artists of all sorts as creators. Some people want to change the world, some people are content helping a single person. I think the commonality there is that a lot of us want to make some sort of tangible difference in the world, something more than just existing as a small cog in the great capitalist machine that just keeps chugging along. It doesn't help that we are often identified as our function in society, as our job.

Wow, you hit the nail right on the head there FDW. Pretty much most of what I was contemplating. I think back to when I started university, when I asked why I went to university to study what I was studying, I remember sort of laughing and saying "Cause thats what you're supposed to do (re: university), and my dad told me to go into this."

Definitely, the sterotypical middle class (a house in the suburbs, 1.5 kids, a nice car and some toys) scares the crap out of me. I always saw myself as somewhat ambitious and working to much bigger goals, but I got burned a couple times sacrificing personal relationships for career objectives. Not nessasarly a big sacrifice, but a little bit here, a little bit there, and sooner or later, I ended up making a bit of a mess and a lot of things I regret. So, I'm not hoping not to make my career #1 and I would very much like to have find a great girl to marry as I stated above. (obviously not now, but when I'm older)

What interests me isn't really what I really see as a viable career options. There are a lot of things that interest me, but none of them that I really have a huge huge passion for and nothing that I really see as fitting me in terms of my personality and my motivations to do work (i.e. what motivates me to do what I want to do). Its funny that a few years ago, it felt like the world was in my hands and everything was new and exciting, and now everything seems perfectly attainable and understandable... and I honestly wish it didn't seem so easy. (Thats not to say every profession or study is easy, but moreso, I just don't get the "wow" out of things that used to excite me, learning about something cutting edge or unique, but more of a "ah ok, I can see how that works.)

My current degree/education - it isn't something I hate, and it is something I enjoy, but I don't know if its something I would say I "LOVE TO DO" ... but as far as how much I enjoy it, probably just as much as anything else I can think of that you can study in university...

When I was younger (i.e. before university) I did a lot of music... lessons, band, etc... I loved it then... last week when meeting friends, one asked me to go to the symphony and I declined. I flat out just said I'm not interested in that kind it. I played drums for quite a few years, and my drum set is now just sitting in my basement collecting dust and I'm about it sell it. I played a few other instruments for quite a few years and actually got to a teaching certificate in a few, but now I don't even play unless asked. I was interested then, I'm just not interested anymore.

There's only one thing that really excites me, and its the one thing I know I can't do - a professional soccer player making the big bucks and living the Ovechkin life. I may have an opportunity soon to play for a pro league coming up, but its going to be like ECHL comparable or lower, so nothing special.

One thing I also talked about with my undergrad friends was to look at things in terms of what you are working towards: money, power, helping people, interest in career and so on. Would I rather use a more social job, a hands on job, a office job... I did know at sometime that I wanted a position where I had would influence a lot of people... I'm not sure if that is exactly the biggest objective at the moment though, but something I would look for in this mysterious black box career I work towards.

Interesting about the philosophy study... to study something that you almost struggle with. To me though, I see a separation between interests in learning something in university, and a career. Something I realized in my last year of undergrad and led to a somewhat paradigm shift in career.

For now, given my education and so on, I'll probably be what you described (house, family routine, one-upmanship of new fancy toys), and to me, thats scary.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

But, in the short term... graduating still scares the hell out of me.

I been through that feeling twice - and the second time was probably worse. School breaks things down into nice bite-sized time-lines and objectives. It's easier to digest than when you are done and staring at decades or longer in front of you.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I been through that feeling twice - and the second time was probably worse. School breaks things down into nice bite-sized time-lines and objectives. It's easier to digest than when you are done and staring at decades or longer in front of you.

How did you treat that in your last year, and the 2 years after you graduated, to coup with that?

I think its exactly what you said - school very much did break things down into bite-sized objectives at a certain time. A working career just seems to vague and long term that it seems a little overwhelming.

[Phanuthier]

Somewhat revelation...

Come to think of it, that somewhat paradigm career shift I made (still within my field of study) was to try and break down my career into that bite-sized, timeline and objectives because this was my biggest fear a year ago. That is, a job that motivated by design projects rather then R&D which is a little vague... definite timelines and objectives...

ok maybe i'm sounding a little emo now, time to go buy some skin tight jeans.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

How did you treat that in your last year, and the 2 years after you graduated, to coup with that?

I think its exactly what you said - school very much did break things down into bite-sized objectives at a certain time. A working career just seems to vague and long term that it seems a little overwhelming.

Well in my old career it just got worse and worse to the point which is why I went back to school. But when I graduated the 2nd time I suddenly became very worried that it would just all start again - I would get tired of what I do and the grind of it and became unhappy again.

Thankfully that hasn't happened - I love what I do now on most days. And I also know now that if it does happen I'll just change careers again...nothing wrong with that.

But my point of view has also changed because of things that have happened in my life - some good and some bad. I appreciate my family a lot more now - and realize that the health of them is far more important than anything else. I took that for granted for a long time.

However that's not to dismiss any of what you are saying....for me I can very easily fall into the trap of becoming defined solely by my career as it really has been my focus for the last few years at the expense of other things. Right now I'm challenging myself in areas outside of work and striving to achieve more balance....and because of that I've got some new exciting things happening outside work that I'm enjoying.

Boy not sure I answered your questions at all now that I read what I just barfed up.

[shermanator]

I graduated from University 2 years ago, in a degree that was stretched out to be over 6 years so that I could enjoy my college experience and not be overly stressed out. Upon graduating, I saw the exact same thing you did, what with companies wanting years of experience. I've been in my field almost a year now, and I'm still seeing that companies want years of experience for Junior positions. The biggest thing I can advise is to not stress out if you don't find a job right away.

Someone will bite and give you a job despite the fact that you have no experience. It took me almost a year and a half to find someone to hire me.

The biggest thing that worried me post university was the whole growing up thing. I didn't want to find a wife, have kids, work 40 years, and get the house in the burbs where I yell at people to get off my lawn. I stretched my degree out so I could party another year because I knew I would miss the university life. And I still miss it. But eventually you grow up little by little as time goes by. The initial shock of working a 9-5 is huge initially, but you get used to it.

Not sure how much that helps...

[Phanuthier]

Well it certainly help. Misery loves company too, so its always good to know I'm not alone and to hear how other people dealt with it. The last time I freaked out (last week) I started doing thing I came close to regretting... drinking alot, picked up smoking (thankfully stopped before I got too addicted), I basically started to somewhat spiral out of control in many ways. As I said, grad school was somewhat a panic move and a shift in careers because I was too afraid that my current path was too vague and I wanted something digestible like university you described.

I also do know I'm going to change paths mid way through my career, I don't forsee this being a long term goal. As I stated, an MBA is something I've thought about for a while (maybe in my field, maybe in something different)... but even obtuse ones as well... photography, politics, investing and philanthropy...

[shermanator]

40 years is a long freakin time to be doing one career, it's inevitable you'll change. I almost changed mine before it even started just because it provided me a job.

[Ozy_Flame]

Same boat as you, Phanutier, but I'm three years out now.

The first year and a half were a real challenge, but then afterwards it gets a little more clear of what you need to do in life. I had that same sentiment of "what now?" but it sort of subsides a bit once you get more perspective.

I think there are things that will come along in life that you never realized you'd be interested / involved in, and you just take life as it comes. I decided to go back for my Masters this fall, and I know I'll be the oldest in the class, but it's worth it - find a short-to-medium term goal and just keep attaining goal after goal. Think of it like chapters in your book of life.

Keep this in mind - the ultimate goal as a human being is to reach our highest potential, and to help others as much as we can in the process. You decide how best you want to accomplish that, and no one is going to laugh, criticize, or stand in your way from it. Nobody.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by shermanator

40 years is a long freakin time to be doing one career, it's inevitable you'll change.

Agreed. 5 years seemed like a long time to me. Not sure I could handle a lot more than that if it wasn't some amazing job.

[Caged Great]

I just graduated at the end of March (actually, my grad ceremony was on Thursday) and I've hit the ground running. I've started up my own firm and have already had 6 full time position offers when I'm only one of two people in my class to even have a full time job right now.

One of the things I did before going to school in the first place was to find something that I love doing and make a career out of it. That's why I decided to become a designer instead of something else like a lawyer or doctor. For me, it worked out well because in the end I get to do something that I enjoy doing.

I went through a lot of bs and harassment because of the field I'm in, because it's not a typical field for a guy, but you need to do what works for you and who cares what anybody else thinks. Your life is what you want to make of it. If you are not happy with what road you're on, you can change it. It won't be easy to change, and you will question yourself if you're doing the right thing and all that but if you really want to change, then commit to it. Believe me, the shift in the path I was leading from Doctor/Lawyer to Interior designer was not a small one and took me a while to adjust to it but I've honestly never been happier in my life because of it.

You just have to be honest with yourself on what you want, and where you want to go. What you want to become and who you want to be. The chips will all fall where they may after that. Just don't stress yourself out and be patient with the process of figuring out exactly what you want. It will all come to you in time.

[DESS]

Yeah OP you're in a pretty critical stage of life right now. There are some inevitable realities I see coming though given what you said about wanting to find a girl to marry. By the time you're 27 or 28 at about the latest, you'll sucumb to the personal and private pressure to marry her. Within a couple of years she'll be pregnant. You'll need a house with a few rooms in a family-type neighbourhood (read: burbs). You'll need a full-time job that kicks out a reasonable amount of cash to support all this. Boom, you're one of us LOL.

If you want a bit of advice from your old pal DESS, do yourself a favour and pick up a short little book called The Millionaire Next Door. After five years in the proffessional 9-5 type world (which for me was more like 7am - 10pm on a short day) I walked away, borrowed some money on top of what I had saved and bought a small business. Best thing I ever did. In over three years at my new venture I've missed supper with my family just 2 times. I've set stuff up in such a way that I work virtually no OT and I never work weekends, leaving me lots of time for more important things like personal relationships. Sounds to me like this less conventional path me work better for your personality and you'll always have your degrees to fall back on which is good insurance.

When you own your own business you can control so much more in your life. I'm 32 right now and I plan to go down to a four day work week at 40 and a three day week at 45. Also, with all the tax benefits, write offs, etc., I'm making about double what I made working for a corporation in less than half the hours.