Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by CNN

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The Israeli Cabinet authorized "severe and harsh" retaliation on Lebanon after Hezbollah guerillas kidnapped two soldiers and killed three others in a cross-border raid Wednesday.

Israel quickly blamed the Lebanese government for the raid -- and charged it with the soldiers' safe release -- and the Israel Defense Forces began hammering Lebanon with artillery and airstrikes hours before the Cabinet met to discuss a response.



...




Israel called Wednesday's abductions an act of war, and Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, head of Israel's Northern Command, said he has "comprehensive plans" to battle Hezbollah throughout Lebanon, not just in its southern stronghold.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html

Oh boy. Israel now fighting 2 neighbours. Canada actually has peace-keepers on the border in Golan Heights or whatever its called. Wonder if the UN will have to get involved.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Now bombing at Beirut's airport.

Ugly situation, to say the least.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html

The strikes at the airport came hours after Israel's Cabinet authorized a "severe and harsh" response to the abduction of two soldiers by Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas and declared Lebanon's government responsible for their safe release.

[Cheese]

Fundamentalists killing Fundamentalists....
Boil Boil Toil and trouble......

[nfotiu]

Israeli planes have attacked a Lebanese army base. Is this a war now?

[Go4Gold]

I say declare the whole area (Isreal and Lebanon) under UN rule immediately. If they can't make it work, then the rest of the world will have to make it work for them. Treat them all like little children.

[Cowperson]

Israel and Lebanon now fighting

Are you sure Israel is "fighting Lebanon?"

The country's elected government was still in meetings Wednesday, arguing over what to say in public, when Hezbollah chief Sheik Hassan Nasrallah went before television cameras with a pointed threat for the ruling elite.

"Today is a time for solidarity and cooperation, and we can have discussions later. I warn you against committing any error. This is a national responsibility," the cleric said, looking every inch the head of state.

Any criticism over the capture of the two Israeli soldiers would be tantamount to colluding with Israel, Nasrallah said, making it clear that he expected citizens and officials to heed his orders.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...home-headlines

Cowperson

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Fundamentalists killing Fundamentalists....
Boil Boil Toil and trouble......

That's a bit of a harsh view.
Yeah, I'd say that Hezbollah are definatly a fundamentalist group, but you can't really fault Isreal for this kind of respose.

Puttin aside whether or not you beleive Isreal should have ever been created, you have to admit that it's pretty tough for a country that is surrounded by neighbours that don't think the people there have a right to live, let alone have their own country.

There isn't much we can do to fix the fact that rightly or wrongly Isreal was carved out and set up as the jewish homeland. Sure most of the groups that are dedicated to doing away with Isreal are crazy Fundamentalists, but does that mean that the soldiers and government of Isreal are on the same level? I'd say no. The whole country can't just pack up and leave, so at this point I'd chalk their "Fundamentalisim" up to a desire to keep living.

Sure I'd love to see Isreal stop lobbing rockets into Palestine, Lebanon, or where ever else, but right now they have no choice, as if they don't show their strength when things like this happen, they're pretty much dooming themselves.

It's a crappy situation that is surely being made worse by teh religious differences in the area, but the problem was created out of politics.

[Cheese]

Maybe We should call them Extremists then?






What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians—breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.


Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God's chosen land for the Jews.

[RedMan12]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Maybe We should call them Extremists then?






What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians—breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.


Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God's chosen land for the Jews.

Sounds like a gay old time.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Maybe We should call them Extremists then?






What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians—breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.


Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God's chosen land for the Jews.

Yes, I'm sure every citizen or soldier in Israle is a Christian Zionist....wait....that makes perfect sense seeing as how they are all Christian in Israel....also the 10 to 40 million Americans believing this also makes sense, because the population of Israel is generally accepted as being made up of 10-40 million Americans.

Dude, I get it, you don't like religion, and it would seem conservative christions in particular, but this is an alltime great, using fundamentalist christian doctorine, as support for calling Israeli Jews fundamentalists is just freakin hillarious.

Did you know people who live in Israel live in the Desert? And that they are all Jews? And that they are really good at building sandcasltes because they live around so much sand? I suppose by your logice Inuit people in Canada who aren't Jews, and don't live in the desert, must be good at making sand castles.

Israel at this point, as it has been for quite a long time, is defending itself, it isn't fundamentalism or Extremism, it's survival. Whether you think Isreal should exist is an entire different debate at this point, but right now Isreal is surrounded on all sides by people who think they have no right to exist. Should they just sit back and let their neighbours tear away at them? I think absolutely not. Yes it would be nice to find a way for them all to live peacefully but untill the state sanctioned terrorism against Isreal stops, I don't think Israel has any choice but to continue to respond quicly and decisively in these situations. Unfortunately, I see it as something that is going to get worse before it gets better.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Israel at this point is defending itself, it isn't fundamentalism or Extremism, it's survival.

I think they crossed that line along time ago. This is no longer a defensive measure, this is a well calculated offensive movement. They are following America's lead and practicing "pre-emptive war". Frankly, I find it repulsive. Israel is lashing out, trying to bully the region IMO. I think they are walking along a very fine line. America may back them, but I doubt anyone else (other than the American lap dogs) will support Israel's actions. This could quickly spin out of control.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Maybe We should call them Extremists then?






What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians—breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.


Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God's chosen land for the Jews.

The only so called "Christian" that believes that are the same ones that believe if you repent your sins ever few weeks or so you will go to Heaven and that abortion is a sin.

Those people should actually read the bible instead fo going to some BS church and have it dictated to them.

MYK

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I think they crossed that line along time ago. This is no longer a defensive measure, this is a well calculated offensive movement. They are following America's lead and practicing "pre-emptive war". Frankly, I find it repulsive. Israel is lashing out, trying to bully the region IMO. I think they are walking along a very fine line. America may back them, but I doubt anyone else (other than the American lap dogs) will support Israel's actions. This could quickly spin out of control.

See, I think you make a valid point, and I guess that is what the debate is about. How far is too far to defend oneself. In the case of the US, I think it's pretty clear that invading a country in the middle east that has no capability of striking the US is problaby going too far and cannot be justified as defence.

Israel is in a totally different situation, and in this case is probaly practicing the old "Best defence is a good offence" mantra. Unfortunately for Israel it's a bit of a catch 22.
They either respond strongly (as is the case here) when a neighbour either directly, or covertly through state sponsored terrorist organizations attacks them, or they sit back, let it happen, and slowly get blown away. In one case they take the fight to their enemies, and are precieved as a bully, in the other they get slowly wiped out.

Yes they have handled some situations badly, and yes at this point they may be acting a bit out of anger, but they do have a good arguement that for the last 50 years their neighbours have systmeatically attacked them and they are sick of it.

It really comes down to who you think started it. Is it Isreals fault for occupying land that was taken away from it's neighours, or is it their neighbours fault for fighting to get it back.

Ultimately I'd say the responsibility lies with the rest of the nations who were responsible for setting up Israel after WWII. Normally I wouldn't be keen to say other countries, such as the US and UK, have a responsibiltiy to clean up another reions problems, but this one is really a problem that they helped start.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

This is no longer a defensive measure, this is a well calculated offensive movement. They are following America's lead and practicing "pre-emptive war".

A calculated offensive yes, "pre-emtive war" I'm not so sure. How should they coerce the Lebenese gov't to lean on terrorist kidnappers operating out of Lebanon? Do you recommend negotiating with terrorists? Does this not lead to more kidnappings? Or conversley, how do you tell you military that you won't do everything in your power -short of negotiating - to bring them home?

Frankly, I find it repulsive. Israel is lashing out, trying to bully the region IMO. I think they are walking along a very fine line. America may back them, but I doubt anyone else (other than the American lap dogs) will support Israel's actions. This could quickly spin out of control.

They are lashing out, and I think that Bush came out against the recent military offensive. Bullying the region? That makes an offensive on Syria and Iran next, right? Israel holds that Hamas gets their orders from Demascuss while Hezbolah is answerable to the Ayatollah. I don't think they will go that far - they may just keep buzzing Asad's summer home.

Jordan & Egypt signed peace agreements, reigned in the terrorists in their midst (to a degree) and there have been no kidnappings or missle launches along those borders nor any Israeli military offensives. Something the PA and Lebanese gov't may want to think about.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I think they crossed that line along time ago. This is no longer a defensive measure, this is a well calculated offensive movement. They are following America's lead and practicing "pre-emptive war". .

If I'm not mistaken, in both kidnapping instances, the perpetrators crossed pre-1967 boundaries - crossed the Israeli frontier as defined by the United Nations - and killed or grabbed Israeli soldiers.

A clear provocation by Islamic extremists in both cases, one the elected government of Palestine and the other a de facto government operating within an accommodating country.

The Israeli response is pretty much the same as they've engaged many times before through many previous decades, through many previous American administrations, Democrat or Republican. Debate whether that kind of response is right or wrong but its not a recent tactic.

Personally, I think it would be more productive for the Israeli's to be targetting leadership figures - as an example, the cleric in Lebanon at the LA Times link above who warned the Lebanese government to support the actions of Hezbollah.

The NY Times with an interesting analysis:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/wo.../13assess.html

Cowperson

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Go4Gold

I say declare the whole area (Isreal and Lebanon) under UN rule immediately. If they can't make it work, then the rest of the world will have to make it work for them. Treat them all like little children.

Isreal is a developed, rich country with a powerful U.S. supplied military and the implicit backing of the U.S. government.

The UN is the useless playpen where leaders cry like little children but are completely powerless.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by RedMan12

Sounds like a gay old time.

Sounds like extremist Christian Zionist eschatologists in the U.S. who have nothing to do with Isreal (who would have nothing to do with them either since Jews don't believe that) and therefore a totally irrelevant topic for Cheese to bring into this thread. An odd and useless attempt by him to insert some random anti-religion matter into this thread.

If you see some white Americans flying over to Isreal to fight the Muslims, destroy the Mosque on the Dome of the Rock, rebuild the Jewish temple, then pray that the world would end and that everybody except them gets their comeuppance in armageddon...then that piece Cheese copy and pasted into here would be relevant to this thread.

[Go4Gold]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Isreal is a developed, rich country with a powerful U.S. supplied military and the implicit backing of the U.S. government.

The UN is the useless playpen where leaders cry like little children but are completely powerless.

Well this should be their (UN) time to shine, Isreal was created by the UN and it's time for them to step up to the plate and take control.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Sounds like extremist Christian Zionist eschatologists in the U.S. who have nothing to do with Isreal (who would have nothing to do with them either since Jews don't believe that) and therefore a totally irrelevant topic for Cheese to bring into this thread. An odd and useless attempt by him to insert some random anti-religion matter into this thread.

If you see some white Americans flying over to Isreal to fight the Muslims, destroy the Mosque on the Dome of the Rock, rebuild the Jewish temple, then pray that the world would end and that everybody except them gets their comeuppance in armageddon...then that piece Cheese copy and pasted into here would be relevant to this thread.

Viewpoints that you share may not be relevant either. I guess we will see in the next few years what really happens in the Middle East....whether its straight political or theist/political is a fine line in that area. I dont ignore the FACT that the vast majority of issues in the middle east have a theistic base to them. That includes almost everything done by Israel or its neighbors. To not see that is being blind.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Do you recommend negotiating with terrorists? Does this not lead to more kidnappings? Or conversley, how do you tell you military that you won't do everything in your power -short of negotiating - to bring them home?

Negotiating with the terrorists? That's a myopic view of things IMO. Hamas ceased to be a terrorist organization the minute it was elected as the people's representaive. You may not agree with their views or their actions, but they now represent the people. What you fail to understand is that Hamas IS Palestine's FREELY elected government. America bleets on and on about bringing democracy to the middle east, yet the people freely voted and elected Hamas as their representatives. Sadly, Israel made the decision to ignore the will of the people and ignore the new government. The western community fell into line and refused to acknowledge Hamas and further alienated the Palestinian people.

Are the kidnappings right? No. But this is the only response that those within the movement feel they have at their disposal. They do not have a military like Israel. They do not have America funnelling weapons and money to their country to support them. They have very limited means and are doing what they can to make their point. Which is worse to you? Kidnapping a soldier in disputed lands, or assassinating the elected leader of the people that is supposed to be negotiating the solution to the problem?

Let's not forget that Hamas is a fractured organization with many independent cells. Their organization is extremely loose, so they need a great amount of time to negotiate within the ranks of their own organization to find solutions. Again, this is not a structured institution like we are familiar with as far as government goes. This is a very liquid organization that is adapting to its responsibilities, suffering through the same pains the PLO did when it became the people's voice.

They are lashing out, and I think that Bush came out against the recent military offensive.

Bush SUPPORTED the offensive. They just played a clip on NPR from a Bush speech where he fully supported Israel's actions and condemns the capture of the soldiers.

Bullying the region? That makes an offensive on Syria and Iran next, right?

According to the analysts down here, that's exactly where things are heading.

Israel holds that Hamas gets their orders from Demascuss while Hezbolah is answerable to the Ayatollah. I don't think they will go that far - they may just keep buzzing Asad's summer home.

Yeah, and America believed Iraq had WMDs, and the Arab world believes that Washington gets its marching orders from Israel. BFD. If everyone is going to cintinue to bomb the **** out of each other based on bull**** beliefs, then its time to put all the cards on the table and just get it done. Declare war, everyne pick sides, and lets get WWIII/IV under way.

Jordan & Egypt signed peace agreements, reigned in the terrorists in their midst (to a degree) and there have been no kidnappings or missle launches along those borders nor any Israeli military offensives. Something the PA and Lebanese gov't may want to think about.

That's because Jordon and Egypt have a military. The PA and Lebanon are screwed in that regard. Just like the U.S., Israel will beat down the weakest kid on the block to make their point. Israel just has to hope that all of the other kids don't tire of this act, gang up on them, and beat the living crap out her.