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Old 05-05-2010, 01:15 AM   #1
Sly
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One of friends works at a small corner store and caught a guy around 19 or 20 years old stealing adult mags and some pop, without the guy noticing my friend walks behind him and puts him in a lock head and punches him in the face relentlessly till he dropped the goods. My friend then let him go and told him if he ever comes here again, he'll kill him (obviously over the edge). Seeing that this store he works for is his parents business, I can understand why he would go to such extremes to deal with thieves, at the same time I'm afraid the guy might come back with the police and press charges for assault. My friend said he was 'allowed' to attack the guy since he was technically 'stealing' under his parents property. In addition, I asked him why didn't he call the police before attacking the guy. He told me apparently there were a lot more thieves before and that the police could not track them since so many of them came in bunches. Anyways, does my friend have a case here? Or is he just putting himself into trouble?
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:21 AM   #2
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He is able to perform essentially a citizens arrest I believe but for that to be legal he would need to contact the police (I assume Calgary so CPS) ASAP. Past that the amount of force he would be able to use would be the minimum required I believe and in this situation it sounds like anything but that was used.

The more important issue is him putting himself at risk in my opinion though, not of legal ramifications, but rather would you be willing to get stabbed or worse for a couple magazines and a pop. I know that it sucks to have anything stolen, but the financial and emotional costs of being attacked by someone are much worse.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:06 AM   #3
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I'm sure I saw the Darwin award thread somewhere
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:36 AM   #4
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Quote:
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One of friends works at a small corner store and caught a guy around 19 or 20 years old stealing adult mags and some pop, without the guy noticing my friend walks behind him and puts him in a lock head and punches him in the face relentlessly till he dropped the goods. My friend then let him go and told him if he ever comes here again, he'll kill him (obviously over the edge). Seeing that this store he works for is his parents business, I can understand why he would go to such extremes to deal with thieves, at the same time I'm afraid the guy might come back with the police and press charges for assault. My friend said he was 'allowed' to attack the guy since he was technically 'stealing' under his parents property. In addition, I asked him why didn't he call the police before attacking the guy. He told me apparently there were a lot more thieves before and that the police could not track them since so many of them came in bunches. Anyways, does my friend have a case here? Or is he just putting himself into trouble?

Canada is not Britain yet. He is very much in his right to defend his property on his property with force!

Now if your friend had dragged the guy into the back room and tortured him for 3-4 hours then he may be in trouble.
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Old 05-05-2010, 05:56 AM   #5
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When I was in Omaha last week, two dudes come into a Walgreens with sawed off shotguns. Only one dude left. A citizen who was strapped took the other one out. No charges.A little bit different situation of course, but still relevant I think.
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:03 AM   #6
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Is it considered stealing if he is still in the store?
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:40 AM   #7
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In short, yes: your friend did put himself in potential legal jeopardy. The force he used was beyond what was reasonable and constituted assault/battery and uttering threats (technically, on the facts as you've laid them out).

Practically speaking, of course, it's very unlikely the thief will ever involve the police given the circumstances. But in theory, your friend opened himself up to the possibility of civil or criminal consequences.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:03 AM   #8
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Canada is not Britain yet. He is very much in his right to defend his property on his property with force!

Now if your friend had dragged the guy into the back room and tortured him for 3-4 hours then he may be in trouble.

That would be incorrect. You can use appropriate levels of force.. This is a case of inappropriate use of force, based on the OP's account. Jumping a guy who you think might be stealing from you (which I don't think, legally, he is if he hasn't left the store) would never been seen as a reasonable amount of force.

Definately opened himself up to some legal trouble, but like was previously mentioned, the possibility of that happening is likely remote.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:08 AM   #9
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While it shows that the intent was there, i do believe that you cannot accuse someone of stealing until they have left the premise with the stuff.

As far as the assault goes, i think it definitely was a little excessive since the alleged thief was not acting menacing or threatening manner. as much as you want to defend your well being and family business.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:14 AM   #10
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Who care what happens? Tell your friend he just did what was on everybody's mind, anyways. The difference is, he actually had the balls to do it. Good on him for standing up to that kind of crap, no matter what happens.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:15 AM   #11
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Amorak is correct. You do not have the right to defend your property with excessive force in Canada. You have the right to use equal force to defend yourself.

Actually, I don't even know if you have the right to defend property at all in Canada. In your friends case, if he was not in danger, I don't think there is any right to use force on the person.

There are property rights in Canada, but I'm not sure on the legal status of you being able to actually defend your property rights.

Lawyers can chime in i'm sure...
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:26 AM   #12
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I was reading a Canadian legal opinion recently talking about home invasions, saying that while the law has not yet been tested, you can now essentially kill anyone you find in your home. The logic being, with so many horror stories in the news, there is no way you can know how much force the intruder can bring against you and therefore you can use infinite force (killing them) until you know for a fact they have no other way to harm you. In short, the intruder gives up any right to a benefit of the doubt.

No judge would risk the political fallout of convicting someone in the current environment that defended their home and family by killing an intruder.

Kind of interesting I think.


Not sure it applies in this situation though. Your friend can only do what he has to, and he is likely walking the line with that version of events.




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Old 05-05-2010, 07:35 AM   #13
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Many years ago I was told by a member of the Calgary Police service that if a person ever broke into your home and you were going to shoot him. Shoot to kill, not to injure. The injured could potentially sue you. A dead person, not so much!
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worth View Post

Actually, I don't even know if you have the right to defend property at all in Canada...

Criminal Code s. 494

(1) Any one may arrest without warrant

(a) a person whom he finds committing an indictable offence; or

(b) a person who, on reasonable grounds, he believes

(i) has committed a criminal offence, and


(ii) is escaping from and freshly pursued by persons who have lawful authority to arrest that person.



(2) Any one who is

(a) the owner or a person in lawful possession of property, or

(b) a person authorized by the owner or by a person in lawful possession of property,

may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property.


(3) Any one other than a peace officer who arrests a person without warrant shall forthwith deliver the person to a peace officer.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:56 AM   #15
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Many years ago I was told by a member of the Calgary Police service that if a person ever broke into your home and you were going to shoot him. Shoot to kill, not to injure. The injured could potentially sue you. A dead person, not so much!
It doesn't work like that, the estate and representatives could bring a claim both in their capacity and in the name of the deceased.

As for the OP, as mentioned above a few times excessive force is not allowed, especially when it's merely the protection of property and not a matter of defending ones self or family.

Also, what is a "lock head"??

Last edited by valo403; 05-05-2010 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:06 AM   #16
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I think, if it came down to it. If the guy tried to press charges against your friend, provided there were no other witnesses or video, your friend simply has to say the guy was intimidating was carying on in a threatening manner which made your friend scared for his and his properties well being and took the necessary steps to ensure his safety. His word against the thug.
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:22 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Claeren View Post
I was reading a Canadian legal opinion recently talking about home invasions, saying that while the law has not yet been tested, you can now essentially kill anyone you find in your home. The logic being, with so many horror stories in the news, there is no way you can know how much force the intruder can bring against you and therefore you can use infinite force (killing them) until you know for a fact they have no other way to harm you. In short, the intruder gives up any right to a benefit of the doubt.

No judge would risk the political fallout of convicting someone in the current environment that defended their home and family by killing an intruder.

Kind of interesting I think.



Not sure it applies in this situation though. Your friend can only do what he has to, and he is likely walking the line with that version of events.






Claeren.
My Dad has a good friend who spent time in jail for shooting and killing a man during a home invasion. The reason he spent some time in jail was it was determined that the guy was fleeing when he was shot, and since he was fleeing the useof force was not considered appropriate. Granted he didn's spend very much time in jail, but he was sent there for some time.
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:42 AM   #18
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It doesn't work like that, the estate and representatives could bring a claim both in their capacity and in the name of the deceased.
The Fatal Accidents Act, in Alberta at least, drastically limits the damages a deceased persons estate and relatives could receive.

We've bumped into this a few times when family members lose a loved one in a car accident.

Quote:
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Amorak is correct. You do not have the right to defend your property with excessive force in Canada. You have the right to use equal force to defend yourself.

Actually, I don't even know if you have the right to defend property at all in Canada. In your friends case, if he was not in danger, I don't think there is any right to use force on the person.

There are property rights in Canada, but I'm not sure on the legal status of you being able to actually defend your property rights.

Lawyers can chime in i'm sure...


Defence of personal property

38. (1) Every one who is in peaceable possession of personal property, and every one lawfully assisting him, is justified
(a) in preventing a trespasser from taking it, or
(b) in taking it from a trespasser who has taken it,
if he does not strike or cause bodily harm to the trespasser.



Defence of dwelling

40. Every one who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house, and every one lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using as much force as is necessary to prevent any person from forcibly breaking into or forcibly entering the dwelling-house without lawful authority.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 40.


Defence of house or real property

41. (1) Every one who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house or real property, and every one lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using force to prevent any person from trespassing on the dwelling-house or real property, or to remove a trespasser therefrom, if he uses no more force than is necessary.


And then there's always the cautionary tale of David Chen, the vigilante shopkeeper who chased down and apprehended a shoplifter and, for his trouble, was charged with kidnapping and assault with a weapon: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...hopkeeper.aspx
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:17 AM   #19
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And then there's always the cautionary tale of David Chen, the vigilante shopkeeper who chased down and apprehended a shoplifter and, for his trouble, was charged with kidnapping and assault with a weapon: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...hopkeeper.aspx

Exactly, I think anyone who thinks chasing down a fleeing perp is a good idea needs to read articles like that. Once someone is fleeing, they're obviously not posing a threat, and your ability to use force is pretty much gone.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:44 AM   #20
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Seems to me that the law is black and white. Mixed together to form the color of the law known as grey.

What happened back in the day in Britain if you broke into someones home, or stole someones pig. You got hurt, bad.
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