Terri Schiavo - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

dirk diggler · 03-21-2005, 12:22 PM

not sure what your opinion is about this lady who is brain dead, and there is a big debate whether to let her die.... I cant believe the govt. is spending the time and resources it is on this matter.. maybe if they spent time on laws that prevented pedophiles from being released and on the street and able to grab kids, like the girl in florida.. To me it seems like the govt. is interferring way more than they need to in this case, i know if this was a relative of mine, or myself, i would want the plug pulled.. no quality of life there..

Mean Mr. Mustard · 03-21-2005, 12:50 PM

Fotz she has no cognitive abilities, she can not think for herself. Her cerebral cortex has been damaged so severly that the only reactions that she has are in effect reflexes. She is living off a brain stem, and I use the term living loosely, she is existing rather than living. She can survive with minimal support (no respirator and all that stuff, but she does need a g (direct) feeding tube to stay alive).

there is nothing there. I have seen some videos of her, and well there honestly isn't anything there. I don't wish death upon her, but i think it is best for all parties. The parents need to let go, something they have been unable to do, the husband could move on with his life, knowing that the woman he loved is now safe (ironically from her family who will do anything including amputation to keep her alive).

Flames89 · 03-21-2005, 01:11 PM

Pull the plug on me! As one who leans towards the libertarian side of things, I am obviously against the government telling me what my wife who I gave my life to wanted or not. As well as rising above the medical professionals.

Makes me sick actually, especially when you hear quotes about how she should stay living "as God intended".

Cowperson · 03-21-2005, 01:12 PM

My father was in the same position two years ago, brain dead, no hope of recovery or restoration of cognitive functions.

On a cold, snowy night, I made the decision to withdraw support so he could die. . . . which he did five days later. My siblings were in agreement when contacted.

I'm sure there are others in this crowd in the same position.

It was a bit easier in that my father had signed a statement only earlier that month saying he wanted to die if he were in that position. I got the sense from the doctors that it was really my (our) call though . . . his statement would have only come into play if I had wanted to keep him alive and my siblings had thrown up a fuss.

That's what is missing in this case . . . you don't know if that is what she would have wished.

I think they should let her go.

Cowperson

JohnnyO · 03-21-2005, 01:27 PM

Dirk with your girth you could survive a year or 2 without a feeding tube.

RougeUnderoos · 03-21-2005, 01:29 PM

I saw the husband and his brother (I think) on Larry King last night. They had printouts and such from EEG's (I think) that showed the woman has no brain activity going on.

I've also seen video of her and she looks conscious, like she knows what is happening. Thinking, responding to people. That makes it a tough call of course, and her parent's use it as proof that she should be kept alive.

The husband said that was an editing job. PR basically. "If you say her name to her 49 times she won't respond but on the 50th she'll blink her eyes, and that's the one they'll put on TV, they don't show the other 49 times".

It's a tough one for the family but they really should let her go. I get the sense though that even if they had it in writing it would be challenged.

I-Hate-Hulse · 03-21-2005, 04:59 PM

From CNN:

At the Florida hospice where Schiavo is being cared for, three people, including former militia-movement leader James "Bo" Gritz, were arrested Saturday because they refused to stay back from a police line. The three apparently were trying to get water to Schiavo.

Other activists at the scene said they had plans to attempt to get bread and water to Schiavo, but said they would wait until Tuesday to see what happens in Washington.

This is getting crazy. Isn't the Militia usually concerned about preventing Government meddling in private citizens life? I hate the term but flip-flop would seem to apply.

What are these people going to do? Jam a piece of bread in her mouth and work her jaw for her?

With the Republicans and the US political machine involved the only way this woman dies is if some rogue doctor takes matters into their own hands.

Mean Mr. Mustard · 03-21-2005, 05:04 PM

IHH that is one of the funniest things I have ever read. Jam a piece of bread in her mouth... she is being fed through a tube you bloody morons. She can't move what would make you think she could you know chew food, and drink water. Do you think she is going to pop out of her bed, and talk about how she has been dying for a sandwich.

Incinerator · 03-21-2005, 05:13 PM

I'm with the parents on this one, not so much whether the woman is brain dead or not, what irks me the most is that it appears the husband only wants her to die because he is the legal guardian and apparently he stands to inherit a handsome sum of $$ when she dies. And it also bothered me that he's moved on with his life with another woman before his wife is property laid to rest in peace. I don't know this guy but going by my own moral standards I have no reservations about calling him a scumbag.

Sammie · 03-21-2005, 05:31 PM

I find it amazing that so many people think it's okay to remove a feeding tube from this lady and let her starve, but heaven help the horse-owner who doesn't feed his horses because he's broke, or the seal hunter who shoots a seal pup! What a twisted world we live in today!

RougeUnderoos · 03-21-2005, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Incinerator@Mar 21 2005, 05:13 PM
I'm with the parents on this one, not so much whether the woman is brain dead or not, what irks me the most is that it appears the husband only wants her to die because he is the legal guardian and apparently he stands to inherit a handsome sum of $$ when she dies. And it also bothered me that he's moved on with his life with another woman before his wife is property laid to rest in peace. I don't know this guy but going by my own moral standards I have no reservations about calling him a scumbag.

Possibly. Though to me it appears that maybe her husband loves or at least loved his wife and he knows her pretty well. He claims she told him to pull the plug. Her parents don't believe him. Maybe she didn't but I doubt she said "keep me alive under any and all circumstances even if my brain is no longer working and I can't eat".

Are there any CPers out there who would like to be kept alive for years, decades maybe, when your brain and body have ceased to function? I know I wouldn't. I don't know anyone who would. Why would she be any different?

Mean Mr. Mustard · 03-21-2005, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fotze@Mar 21 2005, 05:18 PM
I didn't know about the no brain function part. It's just the starving to death part. I would be 'for' giving a lethal injection before the no feeding tube thing. If she has some sort of feeling I would imagine starving to death would not be ideal.

She would likely have no concept of pain right now. She has the ability to breath, and other basic functions which are regulated by the brain stem. No other functioning is present.

And Incinerator the guy has apparently been offered money to sign over the guardianship to the parents but he has refused due to what they would do to her in worst case situations. To call him a guy that doesn't care is just bullshinguard. This is a guy who has given up his life for all intents and purposes for this lady.

Quote:

"Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive . . . at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open-heart surgery. Within the testimony, as part of the hypothetical presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/column...2505feb25.story

To call the guy a scumbag would be in my opinion incorrect, he might just be the one llooking out for her and her interests.

Incinerator · 03-21-2005, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Mar 22 2005, 12:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Mar 22 2005, 12:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Incinerator@Mar 21 2005, 05:13 PM
I'm with the parents on this one, not so much whether the woman is brain dead or not, what irks me the most is that it appears the husband only wants her to die because he is the legal guardian and apparently he stands to inherit a handsome sum of $$ when she dies. And it also bothered me that he's moved on with his life with another woman before his wife is property laid to rest in peace. I don't know this guy but going by my own moral standards I have no reservations about calling him a scumbag.

Possibly. Though to me it appears that maybe her husband loves or at least loved his wife and he knows her pretty well. He claims she told him to pull the plug. Her parents don't believe him. Maybe she didn't but I doubt she said "keep me alive under any and all circumstances even if my brain is no longer working and I can't eat".

Are there any CPers out there who would like to be kept alive for years, decades maybe, when your brain and body have ceased to function? I know I wouldn't. I don't know anyone who would. Why would she be any different? [/b][/quote]
Yeah but is she suffering in any degree when she's being kept alive like this? If she is as braindead as her husband claims wouldn't she not feel anything at all? If she's not suffering in any sense why not keep her "alive" and keep the parents happy? People their age don't need the emotional damage that comes with their daughter's departure from this world. Someone said earlier that the parents need to "let go", but ask yourself if you're the parents would you want to "let go" in that situation? It is a lot less stressful to make the same decision when it's your elderly parents (because nature dictates they're nearing the end anyways, as in Cowperson's case), but when it's your kids I don't think anyone would be able to let go that easily. Just my 2 cents.

Mean Mr. Mustard · 03-21-2005, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sammie@Mar 21 2005, 05:31 PM
I find it amazing that so many people think it's okay to remove a feeding tube from this lady and let her starve, but heaven help the horse-owner who doesn't feed his horses because he's broke, or the seal hunter who shoots a seal pup! What a twisted world we live in today!

Could it just be different situations. Is there anything good in allowing a horse to starve to death? Not really, with all the options out there. By the same measure this lady will not have any pain (she can't really feel pain, as there is no cognitive functioning). I talked to some people who deal with these types of cases, and they all state that there is no pain associated with the removal of the feeding tube. People are let go in this way all the time in the hospices, which have been set up for the purpose.

Mean Mr. Mustard · 03-21-2005, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Incinerator@Mar 21 2005, 05:39 PM

Yeah but is she suffering in any degree when she's being kept alive like this? If she is as braindead as her husband claims wouldn't she not feel anything at all? If she's not suffering in any sense why not keep her "alive" and keep the parents happy? People their age don't need the emotional damage that comes with their daughter's departure from this world. Someone said earlier that the parents need to "let go", but ask yourself if you're the parents would you want to "let go" in that situation? It is a lot less stressful to make the same decision when it's your elderly parents (because nature dictates they're nearing the end anyways, as in Cowperson's case), but when it's your kids I don't think anyone would be able to let go that easily. Just my 2 cents.

In a word dignity.

300spartans · 03-21-2005, 05:44 PM

The husband has been offered $10million to give up his rights to this and he has refused to do so. It's clear that he is very sincere about this.

Though it sounds brutal, studies show that the quality of death by starvation is quite high. Some news articles I read about this whole matter quote a study which polled medical practitioners who rated it 8 out of 9.

Cowperson · 03-21-2005, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Incinerator@Mar 22 2005, 12:13 AM
I'm with the parents on this one, not so much whether the woman is brain dead or not, what irks me the most is that it appears the husband only wants her to die because he is the legal guardian and apparently he stands to inherit a handsome sum of $$ when she dies. And it also bothered me that he's moved on with his life with another woman before his wife is property laid to rest in peace. I don't know this guy but going by my own moral standards I have no reservations about calling him a scumbag.

You do know, don't you, that the life insurance policy on her life would have been put in place PRIOR to her unfortunate circumstances arising, with zero likelihood the husband foreseeing the circumstances this couple finds themselves in today.

Still, there are often good reasons, particularly for young couples, to have insurance in place for circumstances where one of the partners might die young, the creation of an estate to help the survivor overcome the loss economically. Its a primary selling point in the insurance industry. You don't expect to use it but you have it case . . . .

Secondly, as others have noted, he's been offered far more money to save her than he has coming to him as a result of an insurance policy.

It may well be just the principle of the thing, an apple being only an apple.

Third, perhaps many of you here don't have wills in place given your ages but its common in the process of building such a document that you would likely state, when you're of sound mind, what is to be done in circumstances such as Schiavo's, whether the plug is to be pulled on your life or not.

As you can see from this situation, if you don't have a will where your wishes for this kind of circumstance aren't spelled out . . . . . maybe it's time you did it so there's no ambiguity.

Don't leave things behind for people to fight over . . . . because they will.

My two cents.

Cowperson

Displaced Flames fan · 03-21-2005, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cowperson@Mar 22 2005, 03:46 AM

As you can see from this situation, if you don't have a will where your wishes for this kind of circumstance aren't spelled out . . . . . maybe it's time you did it so there's no ambiguity.

Don't leave things behind for people to fight over . . . . because they will.

My two cents.

Cowperson

Your two cents is priceless. It is the point that everyone should take from this thing.

There are no bad intentions here. Who can blame parents for holding onto some bit of hope that their daughter will come back....no matter how thin the hope is? Everyone could certainly understand the other side as well, it's been explained well in this thread.

Unfortuanately and predictably, we have people here who are demoninzing one side or the other. Why? Both sides of the argument are honorable positions.

Cowperson said it all though...take his advice and this doesn't happen in your family.

FlamesAllTheWay · 03-22-2005, 12:20 AM

Seems to me that she has pretty much been dead for the past 15 years, regardless of whether or not her body decided to stick around. 15 years in a vegetative state with little to no progress being made and a 7 years and counting battle between her parents and her husband over who has the right to remove her feeding tube.

I say, just let her go already so everyone can begin getting over it and move on with their lives. Some people seem to forget that this has also greatly affected her husband's life as well for the past 15 years. That is an awfully long time to put your life on hold to wait for signs of progress, only to recieve none...

WCE · 03-22-2005, 01:09 AM

As a sidebar to the obviously delicate nature of the life/death scenario...

Is anyone else disturbed by the US government's rushed tabling of legislation...In praticular the use of the term "Palm SUnday Compromise"

1. 'Republican supporters said the "Palm Sunday Compromise" seeks to protect the constitutional rights of a disabled person and rejected suggestions that political motives lay behind the last-minute maneuver.'

Palm Sunday? Good lord*, give me a break. Secular society, what was that?