Multiculturalism Utterly Failed - German Chancellor

[starseed]

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/1...m.html?ref=rss

Angela Merkel said Saturday that the concept that different cultures can live happily side by side does not work.
Merkel made the comments during a speech in Potsdam to youth members of her Christian Democratic Union party.
She stressed that immigrants need to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German.

Before this quote came out, my coworkers were talking about this. They seemed to have come to the same conclusion. Ever since the economy dipped, people in many different affluent western countries have had more and more people show a negative attitude toward immigration and different ethnic groups they perceive as being foreign.

Do you guys think multiculturalism has failed? Should we follow the US example of assimilation like Merkel suggests?

I have always thought the Canadian mosaic style of multiculturalism was one of our best features as a nation, but I get the feeling many Albertans disagree.

[Hemi-Cuda]

i expect any immigrant to Canada to obey our laws, learn to speak the local language, and reasonably integrate into Canadian life (that why they're coming here is it not?). i don't really care what they do beyond that, but i'm just sick of hearing these stories of immigrant families who keep the barbaric practices of their home nations with them, like sharia law. that story a few months ago about a young girl who was murdered by her father and brother as an "honor killing" made me sick to my stomach

[Codes]

I think that having exposure to so many cultures is incredibly enriching.

That being said, immigrants have to meet us halfway, and in some cases such as Canadian law, all the way. As someone mentioned, it is bothersome when they continue to practice traditions that are absolutely not okay by Canadian standards.

I'm also not overly enthused about how politically correct our society has become. I'm not religious, but "Merry Christmas" and "Christmas Trees" for example, are part of Canadian traditions. I don't like being told that I'm being offensive if I wish someone a "Merry Christmas".

Another issue I have is when immigrants don't make an effort to learn the local language. I understand it can be very difficult, but I think it can make for an extremely dangerous situation if people aren't able to effectively communicate with one another during times of emergency.

Thankfully in Canada, for the most part we seem to have a rather harmonious blend of multiculturalism and integration. Improvements can be made on both sides, but our situation seems better than places in Europe.

[CaramonLS]

I think the largest problem in this regard is women's rights - certain cultures are bringing their own ideas of how to handle women to this country.

Dealing with employment in certain areas of the NE, women are frequently told to outright refuse promotions by their husbands, so they do not lower their status. It is not uncommon at all.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by starseed

Should we follow the US example of assimilation like Merkel suggests?

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think she was hinting that Germany needs to go down the path that America has. Instead, I think she was highlighting that it is a give and take relationship but in Germany that taking has been one-sided. Compromises need to be made on both sides and like Codes stated, the sides need to meet halfway. Getting back to the path different countries can take, I believe Canada has shown that there is a path that works so long as people are giving as much as they are taking, which may not be the case in Germany during their recent history.

[Hemi-Cuda]

though the fact that Germany is being "invaded" by foreigners who want to impose their own culture and society on others is a little ironic...

[PyramidsofMars]

Let's face it: we were a mosaic of cultures loooong before official multiculuralism. And don't give me crap about European cultures not differing that much and the Asians etc. being a tiny minority compared to now. We all know that's nonsense and we only need to look at the fragmented mess that Europe is and always has been to understand that.

I think Canada obviously has problems, especially with the South Asian community in some respects, which need to be addressed. But overall, I can't see the same problems a lot of other people see, or at least not to the same extent. Largely, Canadian minority cultures are moderate and fairly acclimatized.

I'm not saying lose your culture entirely and try to mimic whatever it is we've decided is 'Canadian' this week, but there also should be an understanding that this country is not a doormat. I find some examples to be greatly fussed over for little reason: the Lebanese Canadian issue in 2006 for example [let's not forget that Lebanese were around in Canada long before official multiculturalism], but others a real cause for concern. I think we're letting in far too many people at once from South Asia while valid applicants from the Mediterranean, from Europe, from the UK, from Oceania, etc. are waiting, simply because of certain interests. I think we can probably make the restrictions on immigration tighter.

But I don't think the model itself is essentially broken, it's simply a matter of the bureaucracy being messed up.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I think the largest problem in this regard is women's rights - certain cultures are bringing their own ideas of how to handle women to this country.

I find the frequency of this point being brought up a little silly. Yes, we need to address the problem of how South Asian cultures view women.

But we also need to understand that it is a fantasy we feed ourselves that women are really thought of all that well by regular North American folk. How many rapes do we deal with in Canada again? Aren't these rapes often perpetrated not by foreigners but by regular white guys or fully assimilated non-whites? We can look at income disparity and say it's not that bad, but what about sexual harrassment and emotional and mental abuse of women?

We have the state structures and laws that are needed to assure us of certain key women's rights. But how that's played out in actuality is a vastly different matter, and I think people use 'other cultures' as a way of ignoring the HUGE gender problems in their own culture.

And have you noticed that if a white guy kills his a woman in his life because she cheated on him or did something to disturb him, or if a white guy beats his daughter for getting pregnant, or similar things which happen not infrequently, it's a 'horrible crime.'

But if an immigrant Muslim does the same thing it's an 'honour killing,' cuz we love labels, don't we? And we should stop letting the immigrants come to our country with their misogyny.

And in what respect was the white guy killing this woman in his life really different from the Muslim doing the same thing? Their presented reasons for doing it may be different, but it's really about giving the bitch 'what she deserves,' isn't it?

A lot of men, a LOT of men, hate women. I mean, literally if you walk out on the street and look at three men, chances are two of them are at the very least potential rapists.

Bringing women's rights into immigration debates is valid to an extent, but to me seems largely a manner of excusing 'Canadian culture''s own horrific misogyny, and making ourselves feel all better.

Because the one guy is just white trash, we got nothing to do with that, but man, dem Muslims with their stone age tribal customs...

And you know, as if domestic abuse isn't a major problem in households regardless of ethnicity.

[Weiser Wonder]

I don't have a clue what you're talking about PyramidofMars.

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

A lot of men, a LOT of men, hate women. I mean, literally if you walk out on the street and look at three men, chances are two of them are at the very least potential rapists.

You make some valid points, but that is absurd, to put it politely.

[DrJ]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

I find the frequency of this point being brought up a little silly. Yes, we need to address the problem of how South Asian cultures view women.

But we also need to understand that it is a fantasy we feed ourselves that women are really thought of all that well by regular North American folk. How many rapes do we deal with in Canada again? Aren't these rapes often perpetrated not by foreigners but by regular white guys or fully assimilated non-whites? We can look at income disparity and say it's not that bad, but what about sexual harrassment and emotional and mental abuse of women?

We have the state structures and laws that are needed to assure us of certain key women's rights. But how that's played out in actuality is a vastly different matter, and I think people use 'other cultures' as a way of ignoring the HUGE gender problems in their own culture.

And have you noticed that if a white guy kills his a woman in his life because she cheated on him or did something to disturb him, or if a white guy beats his daughter for getting pregnant, or similar things which happen not infrequently, it's a 'horrible crime.'

But if an immigrant Muslim does the same thing it's an 'honour killing,' cuz we love labels, don't we? And we should stop letting the immigrants come to our country with their misogyny.

And in what respect was the white guy killing this woman in his life really different from the Muslim doing the same thing? Their presented reasons for doing it may be different, but it's really about giving the bitch 'what she deserves,' isn't it?

A lot of men, a LOT of men, hate women. I mean, literally if you walk out on the street and look at three men, chances are two of them are at the very least potential rapists.

Bringing women's rights into immigration debates is valid to an extent, but to me seems largely a manner of excusing 'Canadian culture''s own horrific misogyny, and making ourselves feel all better.

Because the one guy is just white trash, we got nothing to do with that, but man, dem Muslims with their stone age tribal customs...

And you know, as if domestic abuse isn't a major problem in households regardless of ethnicity.

LOL - Hide your kids! Hide your wife!

[psicodude]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

I find the frequency of this point being brought up a little silly. Yes, we need to address the problem of how South Asian cultures view women.

But we also need to understand that it is a fantasy we feed ourselves that women are really thought of all that well by regular North American folk. How many rapes do we deal with in Canada again? Aren't these rapes often perpetrated not by foreigners but by regular white guys or fully assimilated non-whites? We can look at income disparity and say it's not that bad, but what about sexual harrassment and emotional and mental abuse of women?

We have the state structures and laws that are needed to assure us of certain key women's rights. But how that's played out in actuality is a vastly different matter, and I think people use 'other cultures' as a way of ignoring the HUGE gender problems in their own culture.

And have you noticed that if a white guy kills his a woman in his life because she cheated on him or did something to disturb him, or if a white guy beats his daughter for getting pregnant, or similar things which happen not infrequently, it's a 'horrible crime.'

But if an immigrant Muslim does the same thing it's an 'honour killing,' cuz we love labels, don't we? And we should stop letting the immigrants come to our country with their misogyny.

And in what respect was the white guy killing this woman in his life really different from the Muslim doing the same thing? Their presented reasons for doing it may be different, but it's really about giving the bitch 'what she deserves,' isn't it?

A lot of men, a LOT of men, hate women. I mean, literally if you walk out on the street and look at three men, chances are two of them are at the very least potential rapists.

Bringing women's rights into immigration debates is valid to an extent, but to me seems largely a manner of excusing 'Canadian culture''s own horrific misogyny, and making ourselves feel all better.

Because the one guy is just white trash, we got nothing to do with that, but man, dem Muslims with their stone age tribal customs...

And you know, as if domestic abuse isn't a major problem in households regardless of ethnicity.

What a load of crap.

Rape is illegal in this country, regardless of race. Yes, they happen all of the time, but guys go to jail for it all of the time as well. You are suggesting that this country turns a blind eye to rape which is among the dumbest things I have read on this board.

The media called that incident a "honour killing" because that is what the accused used in his defense. And it wasn't his wife or girlfriend that cheated on him, it was his daughter that simply had sex out of marriage. Can you recall how many "non-saria-law" abiding citizens have done this in the last decade? Yeah...none.

I get that there is still a large inequality problem in north america, but your post is incredibly offensive to hundreds of millions of men that don't treat women like second class citizens.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by starseed

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/1...m.html?ref=rss



Before this quote came out, my coworkers were talking about this. They seemed to have come to the same conclusion. Ever since the economy dipped, people in many different affluent western countries have had more and more people show a negative attitude toward immigration and different ethnic groups they perceive as being foreign.

Do you guys think multiculturalism has failed? Should we follow the US example of assimilation like Merkel suggests?

I have always thought the Canadian mosaic style of multiculturalism was one of our best features as a nation, but I get the feeling many Albertans disagree.

Well I will say this about the Americans, for all their warts. For vast majority, when an immigrant becomes an American they say, " I came from XXXXXXX but I AM AN AMERICAN!" No hyphen

Whereas in Canada we have second/ third generation "Hypenned"- Canadians. And the emphasis is on the hyphen.

I always feel that something that emphasizes and promotes difference and separation is not a good tool to bring people together. For some reason a lot pf people believe multiculturalism = immigration. It doesn't and never has.

That said the Germans discussion on the topic comes about because of a certain "group" that has had trouble integrating into numerous western societies.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

But if an immigrant Muslim does the same thing it's an 'honour killing,' cuz we love labels, don't we? And we should stop letting the immigrants come to our country with their misogyny.

Just to add to what some of the others have posted in response to this - I wasn't even going in the direction of honour killings, albeit it does play a small part, but more or less towards to general attitude of women and how differently they are treated then men.

Your entire argument is akin to cheating on your wife, but it's not a big deal because your neighbor is cheating on his wife with two different women.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Well I will say this about the Americans, for all their warts. For vast majority, when an immigrant becomes an American they say, " I came from XXXXXXX but I AM AN AMERICAN!" No hyphen

Whereas in Canada we have second/ third generation "Hypenned"- Canadians. And the emphasis is on the hyphen.

I always feel that something that emphasizes and promotes difference and separation is not a good tool to bring people together. For some reason a lot pf people believe multiculturalism = immigration. It doesn't and never has.

That said the Germans discussion on the topic comes about because of a certain "group" that has had trouble integrating into numerous western societies.

Which certain group are we talking about here? I thought with Germany they now have the largest Turkish population outside of Turkey. There were large scale immigrations from Turkey in the 60s and many of those immigrants thought it would have been temporary. Turkish is now the second language of Germany. Though they don't seem to be integrating too well...not many Turks have citizenship either even years after arriving.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

You make some valid points, but that is absurd, to put it politely.

where are the rapes coming from? The fantasy that rapists are a tiny minority of men who repeat offend with all variety of women is just that- a fantasy.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Your entire argument is akin to cheating on your wife, but it's not a big deal because your neighbor is cheating on his wife with two different women.

Oh god no. I'm by no means detracting from the validity of questioning South Asian culture's view of women-- I made that clear. My concern is with the frequent deployment of that point of view, which seems to me very clearly a way of avoiding the discomfort of confronting the reality of one's own culture, especially when there is absolutely no real substantial evidence [that I know of] of there being significantly worse rates of physical or mental domestic abuse among immigrant families than among non-immigrant families. And certainly there is no evidence that there are more killings out of a form of jealousy or pride[a serious form of violence against women AND indicative of cultural misogyny] among immigrant communities than there are among non-immigrant communities.

[ZedMan]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

where are the rapes coming from? The fantasy that rapists are a tiny minority of men who repeat offend with all variety of women is just that- a fantasy.

According to stastcan, even if you count every reported sexual crime (that's MORE than rape alone) in 2006 Canada-wide the rate was 77 per 100 000 people. So if we assume 50% of the population is male that's 77 / 50 000 = 0.154% of men are rapists.

So even if there are NO repeat offenders EVER, it IS a tiny minority.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by psicodude

What a load of crap.

Rape is illegal in this country, regardless of race. Yes, they happen all of the time, but guys go to jail for it all of the time as well. You are suggesting that this country turns a blind eye to rape which is among the dumbest things I have read on this board.

Oh, the straw man. Heh.

The media called that incident a "honour killing" because that is what the accused used in his defense. And it wasn't his wife or girlfriend that cheated on him, it was his daughter that simply had sex out of marriage. Can you recall how many "non-saria-law" abiding citizens have done this in the last decade? Yeah...none.

Yes, exactly. Which is exactly why in my argument I clearly made the blindingly obvious connection that this still had to do, much like a cheating wife/girlfriend, or a 'slutty' daughter [I don't know of any killings personally, but I know more than fifteen girls under 25 who got pregnant and were beaten and mentally tortured by their very white, very middle class fathers], with cultural misogyny, with a proprietary view of women. It doesn't have to be the exact same crime for that to apply.

And how many Muslim citizens have done this in the last decade? Uh, one? Out of how many Muslims again? And don't claim that the Parvez case wasn't used as a catalyst to anti-immigrant discussions.

I get that there is still a large inequality problem in north america, but your post is incredibly offensive to hundreds of millions of men that don't treat women like second class citizens.

And how is it so offensive? I am a Canadian man who doesn't treat women like second-class citizens. And what about my post exactly suggests that I wish to offend or don't like that sort of man? I am clearly talking about the massive numbers of rapists and abusers out there, MOST of whom are NOT punished because of cultural misogyny. Please at least try to understand how women live in this country, and the obstacles they face. Try to understand the culture of rape which exists everywhere in Canada. Try to understand that most rapes are not even reported, and the vast majority of the ones which are reported don't result in a conviction. Once again you resort to your friend the straw man. Please, if you're going to refute my thesis, do so by actually refuting the claims which form the basis of my argument, not with baseless and insubstantial rhetoric. Same goes for the crowd thanking your post.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by ZedMan

According to stastcan, even if you count every reported sexual crime (that's MORE than rape alone) in 2006 Canada-wide the rate was 77 per 100 000 people. So if we assume 50% of the population is male that's 77 / 50 000 = 0.154% of men are rapists.

So even if there are NO repeat offenders EVER, it IS a tiny minority.

Government stats on rape are notoriously irrelevant and irreflective. If you do some serious research you can find some fascinating studies on the percentage of women who are raped and abused- it is much, MUCH higher than that would seem to suggest.

To briefly expand on that, StatsCan also reports that only 6% of rapes are reported. Feel free to play with that number and see where that gets you.

and only 1%. ONE PERCENT of women raped by an acquaintance report it. Keep in mind that Statscan also reports that 69% of rapes are committed by acquaintances.

Picture looking different yet?