Hourglass history' What if Japan was never nuked?

[HOZ]

These days, we often forget that the atomic bombs were nearly used on Japan during the Second World War.

Read the rest. Interesting take on how history may have played out.

[holden]

In a weird way it may have been better for Japan that they were nuked.

If the Americans invaded and initiated the very prolonged land battle, the Russians would have snatched up Japanese territory and attacked from the north. Given the fighting spirit of the Japanese, their population would have been decimated. Not only from the bombings and relentless engagement with the Allies, but from the resultant starvation from the naval blockade killing millions.

After the conflicts ending, a large portion of the land of gods would have been under communist rule for the next 45 years as well. Interesting to think about.

[scotty2hotty]

Originally Posted by HOZ

These days, we often forget that the atomic bombs were nearly used on Japan during the Second World War.

OK .... I know I'm probably clueless and reading something incorrectly here ..... but what's with NEARLY used?

What am I missing?

>>>> forget it ... I am clueless. Should have read the actual article.

[sclitheroe]

The nuclear arms race was a huge shot in the arm for many branches of science, technology, and manufacturing. It significantly bolstered the post-war North American economy. We haven’t had another world war since the deployment of those first weapons.

Lots of upside.

Too bad about those initial victims though.

[Ozy_Flame]

The bomb was the lesser of two evils. You either end it instantly or your prolong war and cost more lives in the long run.

I really really hate saying that, but history played out the way it did and we have to accept it.

[CaptainCrunch]

I agree with some conclusions, without the use of nuclear weapons the Russians would have gobbled up a large chunk of Japan, and we would have probably seen the Koreanization of Japan. It would have also effectively given the Russians improved Naval Capability in the Pacific which meant that the Russians would have been able to better threaten the West Coast.

The Invasion of Japan would have gutted the U.S. Marine Corp and the Army in brutal land battles, with the large number of casualties America's economy would have been harmed

Without the example of the horrors of the nuclear bomb, we would have probably seen them used in Korea when China engaged in the war, MacAurther would have had free range to drop nukes on Chinese troop concentrations.

If the bomb hadn't been shown to be so effective, the Russian's might not have thrown as big of an effort into their own atomic arms program.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

There's a really interesting book by Philip K. Dyck called "The Man in the High Castle" which is an alternative history book about if the Axis had won WWII instead of the Allies. Pretty interesting read. The US is tripartitioned with the West going to Japan, the East to Germany and the mid-west becoming a neutral buffer zone.

[CaptainCrunch]

There was another book called Fatherland which became a fairly decent movie called Fatherland.

The American's never got involved in the European war. The German's won on the Eastern front but were still fighting a 30 year war on the Western front.

Because of this the world never found out about the Holocaust.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There was another book called Fatherland which became a fairly decent movie called Fatherland.

The American's never got involved in the European war. The German's won on the Eastern front but were still fighting a 30 year war on the Western front.

Because of this the world never found out about the Holocaust.

Yeah, it was a great book, and a good movie, but you got your front's mixed up.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I agree with some conclusions, without the use of nuclear weapons the Russians would have gobbled up a large chunk of Japan, and we would have probably seen the Koreanization of Japan. It would have also effectively given the Russians improved Naval Capability in the Pacific which meant that the Russians would have been able to better threaten the West Coast.

The Invasion of Japan would have gutted the U.S. Marine Corp and the Army in brutal land battles, with the large number of casualties America's economy would have been harmed

Without the example of the horrors of the nuclear bomb, we would have probably seen them used in Korea when China engaged in the war, MacAurther would have had free range to drop nukes on Chinese troop concentrations.

If the bomb hadn't been shown to be so effective, the Russian's might not have thrown as big of an effort into their own atomic arms program.

They should have dropped an atomic bomb on Hanoi too, end the Vietnam war before it started.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Knalus

Yeah, it was a great book, and a good movie, but you got your front's mixed up.

Its been a long time since I read it

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

They should have dropped an atomic bomb on Hanoi too, end the Vietnam war before it started.

The American's should have jumped in on the North's side and kicked France's a$$es over their abject stupidity.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

They should have dropped an atomic bomb on Hanoi too, end the Vietnam war before it started.

Vietnam war started long before Kennedy added 50K "advisers". The French spent a full decade getting their butts whipped by the Viet Minh.

Instead the US should have taken on hand off of their manhood and simply taken the fight North.

[chemgear]

There were some interesting TV programs on recently with the anniversary.

They did bring up the side effect of the Japanese nation/people feeling like a "victim" of the World War rather than a "perpetrator" as a result of the two bombs. It's been more difficult for them to acknowledge their national aggressive role as a result.

It was interesting to see the comments/notes in their various War Museums in regards to World War II and other engagements.

There are a few of the plaques/commentary they have put up in Japan on this blog:

http://benross.net/wordpress/guest-b...ne/2007/08/23/


"Japan’s Quest for Avoiding a War

The United States helps the Chiang Kai-shek government to continue the war with massive assistance, which has adverse effects on US-Japan relations. To strengthen Japan’s negotiating position vis-à-vis the United States for the purpose of avoiding a war, the Konoe Cabinet decides to sign the Tripartite Pact which Foreign Minister Matsuoka Yosuke strongly promoted."

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Vietnam war started long before Kennedy added 50K "advisers". The French spent a full decade getting their butts whipped by the Viet Minh.

Instead the US should have taken on hand off of their manhood and simply taken the fight North.

They were scared the Chinese would enter.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by chemgear

There were some interesting TV programs on recently with the anniversary.

They did bring up the side effect of the Japanese nation/people feeling like a "victim" of the World War rather than a "perpetrator" as a result of the two bombs. It's been more difficult for them to acknowledge their national aggressive role as a result.

It was interesting to see the comments/notes in their various War Museums in regards to World War II and other engagements.

There are a few of the plaques/commentary they have put up in Japan on this blog:

http://benross.net/wordpress/guest-b...ne/2007/08/23/


"Japan’s Quest for Avoiding a War

The United States helps the Chiang Kai-shek government to continue the war with massive assistance, which has adverse effects on US-Japan relations. To strengthen Japan’s negotiating position vis-à-vis the United States for the purpose of avoiding a war, the Konoe Cabinet decides to sign the Tripartite Pact which Foreign Minister Matsuoka Yosuke strongly promoted."

I've always been put off by Japan's refusal to acknowledge their conduct during the war which was less then humane. Their refusal to apologize for the slaughter of nearly 30 million civillians during the second World War. Their treatment of POW's and use of slave labour to death. The rape on Nanking was particularly brutal. The brutallity of Unit 731. The use of forced comfort woman provided for rape by the Japanese Military.

I have no problem with the bombing of Japan, they'd shown in their conduct that they weren't a people or a military that surrendered easily. The use of Kamikaze's in the Pacific and the interception of Radio transmissions preparing for a war of annihilation to the death by the Japanese in the face of the home land invasion, and a American Nation that didn't want to see hundred's of thousands of Marines, GI's, Sailors and Airmen killed when there was a quicker way.

To me, the Emperor should have been executed for war crimes, under directives ratified by him the conventions of war and international treatment of POW's was removed from Chinese soldiers and civillians causing brutal torture and death.

The major means of getting intelligence was to extract information by interrogating prisoners. Torture was an unavoidable necessity. Murdering and burying them follows naturally. You do it so you won't be found out. I believed and acted this way because I was convinced of what I was doing. We carried out our duty as instructed by our masters. We did it for the sake of our country. From our filial obligation to our ancestors. On the battlefield, we never really considered the Chinese humans. When you're winning, the losers look really miserable. We concluded that the Yamato [i.e., Japanese] race was superior.[52]

Until the Japanese render a apology and pay reperations to Canadian's POW's, like they forced us to apologize for our internment of Japanese Canadian's I don't hold them as a truly honorable society.

And they can play the victim all they want, at the end of the day, that regime, and their way of thinking had to be ended.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

They were scared the Chinese would enter.

They had experience with that. however, I still contend that they fought a half a$$ed war where politicians and not the military were calling the day to day strategy. The American's bled themselves white in a war where they had weak leadership both militarily and politically.

I also think that they were worried that the U.S.S.R would up their material and advisor support for the war.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

The nuclear arms race was a huge shot in the arm for many branches of science, technology, and manufacturing. It significantly bolstered the post-war North American economy. We haven’t had another world war since the deployment of those first weapons.

Lots of upside.

Too bad about those initial victims though.

Little to no upside. We've developed weapons which make all life on this planet irrelevant in the face of technology.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by peter12

Little to no upside. We've developed weapons which make all life on this planet irrelevant in the face of technology.

Interesting point.

But I counter that it was the first technology created that made the concept of a winnable war between soveriegn states unwinnable, and therefore there was the benefit that this technology and these weapons actually created a understanding between two completely different and at times hostile and incompatible political systems that in any other way were destined for an inevitable showdown.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Interesting point.

But I counter that it was the first technology created that made the concept of a winnable war between soveriegn states unwinnable, and therefore there was the benefit that this technology and these weapons actually created a understanding between two completely different and at times hostile and incompatible political systems that in any other way were destined for an inevitable showdown.

Indeed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction

There is much thought that without M.A.D. there would have been a lot more overt conflicts between major powers since 1945.