Help me build a computer (I'm so out of touch with new technology)

[Old Yeller]

My current computer is a P4 2.4 GHZ with 2 gigs of ram, a GeForce 4 card and a 300 gig SATA HD. It's at least 5 years old and its mostly used as an HTPC, but even with this it's reaching it's limitations as a larger 720p/1080p rip will bring the computer to its knees.

I'm looking to buy a new system but like I said, I'm (mostly) horribly out of touch with the new technology so I'm hoping you guys can help match my requirements to system components. Ideally I want to spend around $1500 but I can exceed that if need be - I'd rather future proof myself and spend a little bit more if need be.

The system will still be used as an HTPC and a work computer, the only "gaming" requirement I have is that it'll run Civilization 5 when it comes out - but I doubt that'll be a huge resource hog compared to some of the new games that are out.

What I'm looking for:

• Case - Functionality over flash. I'm indifferent about the look of it, but would like something that's nicely organized inside (or is cable routing a gimmick?). Looking for a case with at least a couple of USB ports on the front or top - my current system has ports on the front, but they don't work properly and it drives my wife nuts when she wants to plug her IPOD in and has to crawl around back. Also if I had to pick between a big tower or small mini tower, I'd pick big tower every time.
• CPU - I'm an Intel guy and would rather stick with that over AMD, I would assume I want a newer quad core CPU - like this http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...8%28ME%29.aspx but I'm not entirely sure.
• Motherboard/Graphics Card- Oh god the amount of choices is overwhelming. Part of what I'm interested in doing that's very important to me is that I want to be able to have dual monitors, but at the same time run a cable to my TV and output movies on that. So essentially I would really like the ability to output to 3 devices (two monitors and a TV). Is this possible? I assume I can get the dual monitors on most graphics cards, and I would need HDMI out on the motherboard. If I got a graphics card with dual DVI's is the motherboard with HDMI smart enough to output to a TV while the graphics card outputs to the monitors? Also the graphics card doesn't need to be that high end, but must be able to play HD and be powerful enough to run Civilization 5 when it comes out.
• Ram - how much is enough for a Windows 7 64 bit system? 6 gigs? 8? 12? DDR3? What brands are good? What speed am I looking for?
• Hard Drives - I'm interested in doing an SSD drive for my OS/programs and a raid configuration for storage of media. I want a fast SSD that's reviewed well. I was thinking of the intel X25-M http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...0%28ME%29.aspx but if someone has a better brand/option I'm all ears. For the RAID storage I was just thinking of mirroring two Western Digital Caviar Greens or Blacks but again, if someone has another suggestion I'd like to hear it.
• Miscellaneous - those are the main categories for building, but if someone has another peripheral that they really like or something else I should be looking at I'd appreciate the info.

Thanks guys, I appreciate any/all advice. If I've missed anything or need to go into more detail on something, just let me know.

[MickMcGeough]

I can definitely vouch for the X25-M G2. There are other drives out there that can beat the X25 in synthetic benchmarks (I believe they use the sandstorm controller), but the X25 was #1 in any of the real-world tests I've seen done.

Writes are an area where the X25 gets beat regularly in synthetic benchmarks but the price and huge number of positive reviews made it too hard to pass up.

ETA: It's sandforce, not sandstorm.

[Old Yeller]

Mick, can you shed some light on what you mean by synthetic benchmarks and this sandstorm controller?

[photon]

Case, I have this one and it rocks big time:

http://www.silverstonetek.com/produc...pno=FT02&area=

Not cheap tho.

Processor yeah the i7 or even some of the higher end i5's are perfect.

RAM if you go i7 or i5 I think they come in tri-channel for best performance, so 6GB would be a good point. I recently went from 4 to 8GB and saw a big difference, but I run lots of apps in the day and I knew I was running out of RAM.

Can't go wrong with the X25-M G2's, great drives. The newest ones based on the Sandforce controller are very competitive as well and benchmark the same or better in both synthetic and real world.

Some good articles:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3667/o...th-mp-firmware
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3668/t...-special-sauce

Video cards, not sure about what might meet your requirements.. the latest ATIs are very good and use a less power than the nvidia's at the moment.

[Vulcan]

If you want to connect to dual monitors plus a TV, I'd recommend you get two video cards. Some of the entry level i3 and i5 MBs and CPUs have on board video but I'm not sure this would work at the same time that you have a video card. Most Motherboards you look at (1366 for i7 and 1156 for i5 and i3) should have two PCI-e slots for dual video cards but check before buying.

I'd recommend going ATI 5xxx series video cards as they do HD audio if you want to connect it to an audio reciever but if you go nvidia probably a GT 240 or 250 would be good for your needs. For ATI the HD 5670, 5750 or even the 5770 which should be good for anybody but a serious gamer. Maybe get one 5670 and one 5770 or get two of one model for future Xfiring.

http://ncix.com/products/index.php?s...E&promoid=1078

http://ncix.com/products/?sku=49184&...anufacture=XFX

The HD 5670 runs cool and doesn't even need a 6pin PCIe power connector so you can cheap out on a PowerSUpply.
All of these cards should have HDMI and will do 1080p without breaking a sweat.

For a MB look for one with the latest Sata3 and USB3.0 but going with a 1366 board is going to be a lot more expensive for memory than a 1156 board as it requires a three stick set.

Here's a good reasonable Power Supply.

http://ncix.com/products/index.php?s...y&promoid=1078

Here's a couple of SSD drives at a good price.

http://ncix.com/products/index.php?s...y&promoid=1078

http://ncix.com/products/index.php?s...n&promoid=1078

Here's an inexpensive DVD writer

http://ncix.com/products/index.php?s...g&promoid=1078

For a case, I think this one for $80 with the blue LED light switched off is great.

http://ncix.com/products/index.php?s...R&promoid=1078

This one for $50 is well thought of too and also has routing holes to manage cabling.

http://ncix.com/products/index.php?s...c&promoid=1078

A few suggestions to help you get started and Memory Express and NCIx should pricematch so search for the best prices when you're ready to zero in on your parts.

http://www.pricebat.ca/

http://www.shopbot.ca/

Go to the NCiX forums and you'll find a number of threads on people building a computer. It should give you some good ideas and you can ask for help too.

[Hanni]

Basically what Vulcan and Photon said. In addition, don't overlook the power supply, many cases come with average power supplies. With your video requirements you will most likely be looking at a video card(s) that require dedicated 12V power. Depending on the video card setup you may need up to 4 12V lines, either 6 or 8 pin connectors.

Basically, decide what video card you are getting and then make sure the power supply has sufficient lines to power it.

I just built a new system in November with the i7 920 and it is fantastic for the price.

[Old Yeller]

Thanks for the replies so far guys, I appreciate it.

Vulcan, after reading the reviews on the HD 5770 I think I will go with that one. It also has dual DVI's and an HDMI port so it seems like it would satisfy my requirement of dual monitors and having the ability to hook up to the TV as well without needing a second card.

Hanni, what motherboard/memory combination did you use? Any complaints? Anything you wish you would have done but didn't?

[MickMcGeough]

Originally Posted by Old Yeller

Mick, can you shed some light on what you mean by synthetic benchmarks and this sandstorm controller?

Sorry, it's sandforce controller.

By synthetic benchmarks I mean that the majority of benchmarks done on these drives are meant to determine theoretical performance limits and don't necessarily represent a perceived performance increase. For example, random 4K writes is an area that all SSDs are tested in, but many of the good consumer level SSDs have already hit the point of diminishing returns here: the average user will never be able to push their drives enough to make use of this performance. At least, not without using synthetic benchmark software.

It's also pretty common for hardware manufacturers to tune their products specifically for the most popular benchmarking suites, because it helps so much in generating positive, unbiased reviews. This is especially prevalent in performance-enthusiast hardware like high end graphics cards and SSD drives.

Real-world tests are testing performance on things you'll actually do; application startup time, file copies, drive searching, bootup time, etc. They're much less accurate so a tester has to perform the tests several times and take averages, which is why they're not as common on review sites.

The Sandforce controller is used on a few SSD drives but apparently OCZ's Vertex 2 has some special firmware that gives it an edge. It happens to clobber all competition in sequential writes, which would be important if you are regularly writing large files to your small SSD... Seriously though, the Vertex 2 is easily the fastest consumer-level SSD out there, but it's spendy.

Here's a good review of the Vertex 2 100GB with plenty of synthetic and real world tests. Note that it inexplicably compares the Vertex 2 against the X25-M G1 which was replaced by the G2 quite awhile ago. The G2 has improved writing performance.
http://www.myce.com/review/ocz-verte...-review-30021/

I chose the X25-M G2 because I got memory express to price match it at $219. Newegg had the 100GB Vertex 2 at $340. I needed super fast bootup and application start times primarily, and the Vertex 2 didn't have enough of an advantage there to justify the extra $220.

Just checked newegg and they've got the Vertex 2 60GB at $184. If 60GB is enough for your OS and apps, that's a steal. Check out some 60GB-specific reviews though, some manufacturers use totally different NAND chips on different sized drives and that can have a huge impact on performance.

[Hanni]

Originally Posted by Old Yeller

Hanni, what motherboard/memory combination did you use? Any complaints? Anything you wish you would have done but didn't?

I have an Asus P6T motherboard, it's quite pricey but Asus is a very quality brand. I actually ordered an XFX motherboard to start and it showed up dead. Not only that but after some research (of course after I bought the stupid thing already) it turned out that this was a common problem for this board. Not only that but it came with no manual, just a motherboard layout as well as the ram configuration given for the board was wrong. Anyway, I ended up having to send it back to tigerdirect and bought the Asus locally.
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applicatio...643&CatId=4070

I am running 6gb of tri-channel Corsair memory
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applicatio...616&CatId=4331

Things I would've done differently:
- Bought a decent motherboard to start with, actually the Asus I have is a little crowded due to my two GTX260 graphics cards, they are massive and barely fit in my case. You shouldn't have this issue.
- Put in a bigger hard drive. I only put in a 500gb drive thinking that's plenty. I ended up adding a second as I quickly realized I had more stuff than I thought. With most newer programs being quite large it didn't take long before I was over half full on the original 500gb.


Make sure you do lots of research, every component has so many options available it's important to make sure they are all compatible and that one piece isn't going to slow the whole system down.


All and all I ended up spending about $3000

Gigabyte Sumo Case
Asus P6T mobo
6gb Corsair ram
Two EVGA GTX260 video cards
Two Western Digital Caviar Black 500gb hdds
Core i7 920
Blue-ray read/dvd burner
OCZ 850 watt power supply
Two 23 inch Samsung LCD's

I also bought a different heat sink/fan for the cpu and added 2 additional case fans.

If you want I can send you pics.

[photon]

Keep an eye out too with the OCZ SSDs (and other Sandforce SSDs), they've released 120GB versions of the same drives (Vertex 2, Agility 2) which retain less of the flash memory for its own internal stuff, but I think the prices are the same or very similar, so the cost/storage ratio is better.

[MickMcGeough]

Originally Posted by photon

Keep an eye out too with the OCZ SSDs (and other Sandforce SSDs), they've released 120GB versions of the same drives (Vertex 2, Agility 2) which retain less of the flash memory for its own internal stuff, but I think the prices are the same or very similar, so the cost/storage ratio is better.

Ah that's interesting. The 100GB uses 28GB (!!) as "backup" for when NAND cells die. The backup cells automagically get mapped into primary storage if and when that occurs.

I wonder what made them drop the backup from 28GB to 8GB...

[Old Yeller]

So a 100GB SSD drive may only have around 70-90GB actual space as a portion is used towards its own internal backup?

[photon]

Rather the 100GB drive actually physically has 128GB of memory.

With what made them drop it from 28GB to 8GB, I think that was the original intent with their non-enterprise controller that's going into these drives. But because the first few drives to market used special versions of their enterprise chip that's the design that the manufacturers went with. Maybe too they wanted to validate their technology first.. testing showing that the risk and performance degradation of using more isn't significant.

The whole point of the Sandforce controllers is to minimize writes.

This is all still pretty new technology keep in mind.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Old Yeller

Thanks for the replies so far guys, I appreciate it.

Vulcan, after reading the reviews on the HD 5770 I think I will go with that one. It also has dual DVI's and an HDMI port so it seems like it would satisfy my requirement of dual monitors and having the ability to hook up to the TV as well without needing a second card.

Hanni, what motherboard/memory combination did you use? Any complaints? Anything you wish you would have done but didn't?

The way I understand this is the trouble with these video cards is that they only have two active outputs at a time. So you can choose one DVI and one HDMI or two DVIs but if connect more they won't all work. The only exception is if you want to add a third output the Display Port will work but you need a monitor with a Display port input or a DVI to Display Port powered active switch. The last time I looked these run at $100+. Anyways I'd look into this before relying on using a third output connection from a video card. For a second card you can pick up something like a HD 5450 for pretty cheap. Here's an example.

http://ncix.com/products/index.php?s...E&promoid=1078

[Old Yeller]

Though I'd come back and update you guys on what memory express priced out for me. I haven't bought it yet, just waiting to hear some opinions before I put in the order:

• CPU - i7 930 2.8Ghz 8MB Cache - $319 at Memory Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX27706(ME).aspx) Price matched to $298.49 on Best Direct
• Motherboard - Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R - $240 at Memory Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...7%28ME%29.aspx) Price matched to $216 at Best Direct
• Graphics - Radeon HD 5770 - $185 at MemExpress (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...7%28ME%29.aspx) Price matched to $168 at Direct Canada
• SSD - Intel X25-M Gen 2 80 Gig - $260 at Mem Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...0%28ME%29.aspx) Price matched to $237 at Newegg
• RAM - Mushkin XP3-12800 Blackline DDR3 6 Gigs - $199 at Mem Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...4%28ME%29.aspx)
• Case - Cooler Master CM 690 II Basic - $100 at Mem Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...1%28ME%29.aspx) Price matched to $71 at Best Direct
• Power Supply - Cooler Master Silent Pro M 600W - $109 at Mem Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...9%28ME%29.aspx) Price Matched to $88 at Best Direct

So first off, whoever told me about Shopbot.ca on here, thank you, you're saving me $150 to $200 easy.

Otherwise I'm just curious about what you guys think of this system in general and more specifically the RAM and the power supply. The guy at Memory Express said Mushkin was a good brand and their most popular selling brand, but I've never heard of it... although that's not surprising. The salesman also said he had the Cooler Master 600W PSU and he really liked it, it seems to have decent reviews, but again, I have no idea about PSU's.

Lastly I already have a 300 gig HD that I'll be putting in the system and I have a 1 TB NAS/streaming video device so I don't need any more HD space if you're wondering why I'm not getting more.

Help me spend my money wisely guys.

[photon]

Mushkin is great for memory, I'm using that right now.

No experience with Cooler Master power supplies, a good PS is something you can keep a looong time, and contributes significantly to cost of operating the computer and how much heat it generates. The Seasonic-X series are expensive but are worth it IMO, getting over 90% efficiency:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/Seasonic_X650

I have a Seasonic and a Corsair PS.

[MickMcGeough]

Originally Posted by Old Yeller

Though I'd come back and update you guys on what memory express priced out for me. I haven't bought it yet, just waiting to hear some opinions before I put in the order:

• CPU - i7 930 2.8Ghz 8MB Cache - $319 at Memory Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX27706(ME).aspx) Price matched to $298.49 on Best Direct
• Motherboard - Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R - $240 at Memory Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...7%28ME%29.aspx) Price matched to $216 at Best Direct
• Graphics - Radeon HD 5770 - $185 at MemExpress (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...7%28ME%29.aspx) Price matched to $168 at Direct Canada
• SSD - Intel X25-M Gen 2 80 Gig - $260 at Mem Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...0%28ME%29.aspx) Price matched to $237 at Newegg
• RAM - Mushkin XP3-12800 Blackline DDR3 6 Gigs - $199 at Mem Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...4%28ME%29.aspx)
• Case - Cooler Master CM 690 II Basic - $100 at Mem Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...1%28ME%29.aspx) Price matched to $71 at Best Direct
• Power Supply - Cooler Master Silent Pro M 600W - $109 at Mem Express (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...9%28ME%29.aspx) Price Matched to $88 at Best Direct

So first off, whoever told me about Shopbot.ca on here, thank you, you're saving me $150 to $200 easy.

Otherwise I'm just curious about what you guys think of this system in general and more specifically the RAM and the power supply. The guy at Memory Express said Mushkin was a good brand and their most popular selling brand, but I've never heard of it... although that's not surprising. The salesman also said he had the Cooler Master 600W PSU and he really liked it, it seems to have decent reviews, but again, I have no idea about PSU's.

Lastly I already have a 300 gig HD that I'll be putting in the system and I have a 1 TB NAS/streaming video device so I don't need any more HD space if you're wondering why I'm not getting more.

Help me spend my money wisely guys.

Looks like a sweet system. It's been awhile since I've built my own so I can't comment on most of the components.

FYI, Nvidia just released the GTX 460, which is apparently the new king of the hill in the ~$200 price range. Not sure if memex carries any yet but it's probably worth checking out.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/12/n...midrange-grap/

[Vulcan]

Looks good to me. Gigabyte has a good rep for MBs and this has Sata 3 and USB 3. Like someone else suggested, have a look at the GTX460 VCard. Maybe go for a little bigger PSU, say a 700 watt to cover any future demands.

[Hack&Lube]

I actually sold my Corsair 750TX for a Coolermaster 700M SilentPro...now that seems like backwards thinking but the Coolermaster was quiter and it was a modular powersupply which is a big deal to me because I like the inside of my case to be neat and have unobstructed airflow and I fiddle with cables all the time.

My Coolermaster 700W was actually only $89 while you are paying $88 for your 600W but mine was on sale at the time.

I would actually consider buying an EVGA GTX 460 for that system. If you play a lot of games, when prices come down in the future, you could throw in another 460 and have a very powerful gaming system in SLI as well as support for multiple monitors and 3D surround.

That said, that 5770 will do multiple monitors on it's own and you could do the same thing by Crossfiring another 5770 to get near 5870 performance levels. The 460 seems like a better deal to me though in terms of value and future expandibility, especially since you've chosen a ridiculous motherboard that supports both Crossfire X and Tri-SLI!

-edit I just read your first post where you said CIV was your only gaming requirement. If that is the case, I would buy a much cheaper (but still Gigabyte or maybe ASUS motherboard). For someone who only wants to play CIV, there is no need for a motherboard that supports 3-4 videocards!

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I actually sold my Corsair 750TX for a Coolermaster 700M SilentPro...now that seems like backwards thinking but the Coolermaster was quiter and it was a modular powersupply which is a big deal to me because I like the inside of my case to be neat and have unobstructed airflow and I fiddle with cables all the time.

My Coolermaster 700W was actually only $89 while you are paying $88 for your 600W but mine was on sale at the time.

I would actually consider buying an EVGA GTX 460 for that system. If you play a lot of games, when prices come down in the future, you could throw in another 460 and have a very powerful gaming system in SLI as well as support for multiple monitors and 3D surround.

That said, that 5770 will do multiple monitors on it's own and you could do the same thing by Crossfiring another 5770 to get near 5870 performance levels. The 460 seems like a better deal to me though in terms of value and future expandibility, especially since you've chosen a ridiculous motherboard that supports both Crossfire X and Tri-SLI!

-edit I just read your first post where you said CIV was your only gaming requirement. If that is the case, I would buy a much cheaper (but still Gigabyte or maybe ASUS motherboard). For someone who only wants to play CIV, there is no need for a motherboard that supports 3-4 videocards!

I was looking at all the 1366 MBs on NCIX and there isn't anything for less than $190 and none in that price range with Sata3 and USB3.0. Yeah 4 PCI-e slots may be overkill but there isn't a lot of choice. Having SLI or XFire is a good option too, the only possible downside is it has only one PCI slot.

If he wanted a lesser MB, he'd have to drop down to a 1156 model and that wouldn't support his processor choice. I'd probably do that and choose an i5 750 or a i7 860 processor or something close to that.