Shouldn't a Mac be easy to use?

[Rathji]

I am a Windows guy at work and a Linux/Windows guy at home and school. The last time I used a Mac for more than 5 minutes was about 15 years ago.

My sister in law, who grew up on Windows, bought a Macbook Pro about 3 months ago. Today after talking to her while installing a wireless printer for her I realize she has zero idea how to do anything but open Pages or Firefox. I asked her if she knew how to make a photo album or edit video, because people say these are good selling points of a Mac and she had no idea where to even start if she wanted to. Stuff like finding out a system setting for her machine was totally impossible as well, like IP address or computer name.

My question is for those who have switched to a Mac from solely using Windows. How hard is it to learn to do these things? What is the expected learning curve for an average user?

[KTrain]

You still have to know how to use a computer relatively well to get the most of your Mac. While iMovie is fairly straightforward to use, you still need to have a basic knowledge of video editing to understand what you're trying to do (splice together video segments, transitions,

If she's near an Apple store, tell her to take a free lesson on how to use her computer. She'll get a lot more out of it and enjoy her purchase that much more. There are also video tutorials for everything you can think to do on your Mac.

iMovie: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2479

iPhoto: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2481

[Devils'Advocate]

I agree, the free lessons are great... I took some in Toronto and learned a lot. Now that they opened a store at Rideau Centre, I should check what they are offering...

But yeah, I did some of the video tutorials this weekend for making a web site. Never designed a web site before in my life and had one up and running within an hour.

But yeah, uhm, was your sister in law all into making photo galleries on her Windows machine? How much time did she spend trying to put together a photo gallery before you concluded that it was too hard for her to learn?

[GGG]

I find Mac's very frusterating to use. I bought one of the new Imac's because they are so much nicer looking than any of the comparable all in one units from Dell or Sony and this was going in my Kitchen. I think my biggest beef with it is that it wants you to do things the "Mac" way and doesn't like it when you try to do things your own way. Windows seems more flexible in that their are multiple ways to do every task.

So my opinion of the Mac is that they are beautiful hardware. The keyboard and buttonless mouse are amazing but the software always seem to frusterate me. Now it might be just be that I am coming from a windows background. The one that bugs me most is that they don't use Ctrl+C for copy and paste. Is their any setting that can enable the control key as well as the apple key?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I agree, the free lessons are great... I took some in Toronto and learned a lot. Now that they opened a store at Rideau Centre, I should check what they are offering...

But yeah, I did some of the video tutorials this weekend for making a web site. Never designed a web site before in my life and had one up and running within an hour.

But yeah, uhm, was your sister in law all into making photo galleries on her Windows machine? How much time did she spend trying to put together a photo gallery before you concluded that it was too hard for her to learn?

None, I assume. She said she didn't know how to do the things on a Mac that she could do on a PC, so I asked her about those things since I notice them touted as reasons people like Macs. Perhaps me mentioning them here in the post clouded my question.

What I am really asking is what the learning curve is. How long did it take (or should it take) for a normal Windows user to switch to a Mac and be fully productive. She mentioned it takes her a lot more time to do simple tasks that she could easily do on Windows, so I was trying to gauge if this was a normal thing with people who switch.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by GGG

I find Mac's very frusterating to use. I bought one of the new Imac's because they are so much nicer looking than any of the comparable all in one units from Dell or Sony and this was going in my Kitchen. I think my biggest beef with it is that it wants you to do things the "Mac" way and doesn't like it when you try to do things your own way. Windows seems more flexible in that their are multiple ways to do every task.

So my opinion of the Mac is that they are beautiful hardware. The keyboard and buttonless mouse are amazing but the software always seem to frusterate me. Now it might be just be that I am coming from a windows background. The one that bugs me most is that they don't use Ctrl+C for copy and paste. Is their any setting that can enable the control key as well as the apple key?

What tasks are you having problems with that Windows feels more flexible at? Maybe we can suggest alternative approaches.

Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V, etc - if you go into System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Modifier keys, you can swap the functionality of the Ctrl and Command keys, no problem.

I don’t recommend doing that though, because then your Mac will behave differently from every other Mac you encounter.

You will get used to it the stock way, and your hands with switch modes automatically depending on what kind of machine you sit down in front of - I have to switch back and forth dozens of times a day, and its rare that I hit Win+C when I want Ctrl+C on a Windows box.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Rathji

None, I assume. She said she didn't know how to do the things on a Mac that she could do on a PC, so I asked her about those things since I notice them touted as reasons people like Macs. Perhaps me mentioning them here in the post clouded my question.

What I am really asking is what the learning curve is. How long did it take (or should it take) for a normal Windows user to switch to a Mac and be fully productive. She mentioned it takes her a lot more time to do simple tasks that she could easily do on Windows, so I was trying to gauge if this was a normal thing with people who switch.

It sounds like she has mastered certain favorite apps by rote learning, and can’t handle any kind of paradigm shift. These same people struggle going from XP to Windows 7, or from Firefox to IE, Eudora to Outlook, etc. I’m not blaming her, its a condition I see every day in my job.

I don’t know what the solution is (or, I haven’t found it yet) - I try to teach and work with these kinds of people to get them to think in terms of processes, and how to navigate and make decisions to get from point A to finished project on a machine, but all they do is scribble notes furiously anyways, trying to capture the exact steps I demonstrate, rather than listen to my explanation of the thought process required to get to the goal.

It’s hard, I don’t know how people can manage like that, particularly when there are so many gadgets and interfaces to try and learn rote, everything from a cell phone to a PC, to digital cameras, bluray players, photocopiers (which are more complex than ever!) etc.

[photon]

The thing is people are so used to Windows it's "programmed" into them.. for a large # of people knowing how to use a computer actually means knowing how to use Windows.. so when there's no Start -> Programs or Control Panel or whatever they're lost.

I found the same thing to start out with, just didn't know where anything was or the basic things of the OS.. when you install where does it go, how do I find the IP, that sort of thing.

OSX is great, but it is a whole different OS so there's still a learning curve that's going to be higher going from Windows -> OSX than Windows -> Some other version of Windows.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by photon

The thing is people are so used to Windows it's "programmed" into them.. for a large # of people knowing how to use a computer actually means knowing how to use Windows.. so when there's no Start -> Programs or Control Panel or whatever they're lost.

I found the same thing to start out with, just didn't know where anything was or the basic things of the OS.. when you install where does it go, how do I find the IP, that sort of thing.

OSX is great, but it is a whole different OS so there's still a learning curve that's going to be higher going from Windows -> OSX than Windows -> Some other version of Windows.

Exactly what I was going to say.

[DownhillGoat]

I found the switch wasn't too bad. But I agree with Ktrain, without a decent knowledge of computers to begin with the macs aren't that much easier. They're easier to set up and start using out of the box than a PC, and file management with itunes, iphoto, etc is easier than windows if you're not the type to know where you actually imported your pics to in the first place...

Photo albums in iphoto are ridiculously easy though. That's a nice feature.

Average application learning curve shouldn't be more than a few weeks at most I would say.

[Russic]

I went from PC to Mac and while I would say the Mac is MUCH easier to use (for me), it isn't something that you just pick up and run with. I spent a lot of time googling how to do things and re-learning how to do others (copy and paste keys being one of them). The difference I found was once I used it for a while it all came together faster than it did for the PC. Of course everybody is different and some people (like my wife) are so comfortable with their PC's that they refuse to go through the steps I did to get comfortable with the OS.

I would imagine somebody like Rathji might find a Mac very frustrating because he's much more of a PC guru than I, and what he would have to re-learn would be much more extensive than what I would have to re-learn.

One key difference I've found with Macs is that while there is a learning curve, many of the programs are designed in such a similar way that once you get one, it's much easier to dive into the others. That's one of my favorite things about them.

[BlackEleven]

One thing that's nice if you're used to Linux is using the terminal. For computer name and IP address like you used in you example just do exactly as you would on a Linux box -- open the shell and type hostname or ifconfig.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

What tasks are you having problems with that Windows feels more flexible at? Maybe we can suggest alternative approaches.

Its hard to thnk of specific things until I do them and I am like "Stupid $#$@! Mac" Then I google it read about and then its a process of getting used to it. I think for me it will be a time thing. I don't do anything productive on it it is a purely movie, picture, internet machine with odd spreadsheet or Word document.

The biggest thing probably is that I haven't really had to think about how to use a computer for the last 15 years and now I have to. I also think I am getting old (only 30ish) but I am becoming increasingly resistant to change.

[kyuusei]

Originally Posted by photon

The thing is people are so used to Windows it's "programmed" into them.. for a large # of people knowing how to use a computer actually means knowing how to use Windows.. so when there's no Start -> Programs or Control Panel or whatever they're lost.

I found the same thing to start out with, just didn't know where anything was or the basic things of the OS.. when you install where does it go, how do I find the IP, that sort of thing.

OSX is great, but it is a whole different OS so there's still a learning curve that's going to be higher going from Windows -> OSX than Windows -> Some other version of Windows.

Exactly. One reason I had an easy time getting used to a Mac was dating someone who had one, so I wasn't learning completely on my own - I had help.

That was nine years ago - and I have troubles with PCs these days. Especially if it's an OS I've hardly ever used, like Vista or 7. There ARE a few different ways to do things on Macs, you just have to learn them.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

It sounds like she has mastered certain favorite apps by rote learning, and can’t handle any kind of paradigm shift. These same people struggle going from XP to Windows 7, or from Firefox to IE, Eudora to Outlook, etc. I’m not blaming her, its a condition I see every day in my job.

That was my thought at first, but then I realized she managed the switch from XP to Windows 7 without any issues. I am pretty sure in her case the cause is her assuming that everything will come for free because it is a Mac, that is without any learning curve. That's what got me thinking about how long it takes a normal Windows user to fully convert to Mac, hence this thread.

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

One thing that's nice if you're used to Linux is using the terminal. For computer name and IP address like you used in you example just do exactly as you would on a Linux box -- open the shell and type hostname or ifconfig.

I agree. That is exactly how I did what I needed to do, because I asked her and she had no idea.

[llama64]

Took me about 4 months to fully assimilate into OS X from Windows. I'm at the point where using Windows 7 makes my brain hurt if I'm trying to get any productive work done (web developer). The flow and lack of quality development tools drives me bonkers.

However, I'd say that moving from XP to Windows 7 isn't much of a jump. It's largely the same thing, with things in slightly different (but more logical) places.

Basic map:
Start Menu/Task Bar -> Dashboard (though I don't use the bloody thing)
Control Panel -> System Preferences
Run Program -> Spotlight (this combined with Quicksilver makes a powerful way to navigate your computer)
Program Files -> /Applications
Alt F4 -> CMD Q
Alt Tab -> CMD Tab

Biggest hurdle I've seen is grasping the concept of how windowing works. In Windows, if you close the window, you close the application. In OS X, if you close the window, the app typically remains open. Apps also share a single menu bar at the top - which can take some getting used to.

Once you "get it", OS X is very much easier to use then Windows - especially for work flow tasks. But if you approach the OS with a Windows mindset and expect it to behave like a Microsoft OS, then no, it won't be easier. It's a different philosophy and a different way of approaching the problem of human interface. So yeah, you actually do need to "Think Different" (hate using marketing slogans, but this one is apt).

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Rathji

That was my thought at first, but then I realized she managed the switch from XP to Windows 7 without any issues. I am pretty sure in her case the cause is her assuming that everything will come for free because it is a Mac, that is without any learning curve. That's what got me thinking about how long it takes a normal Windows user to fully convert to Mac, hence this thread.

Right there what I bolded is the issue. She expected it to be easier and intuitive with no learning curve cause that's the angle they really push in their marketing. And their marketing has obviously been very effective.

In the end, she's learning a completely new operating system instead of learning a very closely related operating system like Windows 7.

[Russic]

When I first heard that to take a screen shot on a mac you had to use command+shift+4 I was annoyed. That is a pretty complicated hotkey combination. Only after forcing myself to use it a few weeks I came to appreciate how much more versatile and useful it is than just copying the full page to your clipboard, because it gives you a crosshair to outline what you want a picture of and then dumps the photo on your desktop.

There's a ton of stuff like that where you think to yourself "is that really better?". There's many things on a Mac that I liken to learning to count on two hands instead of one. For a kid to start counting on both hands takes a little getting used to, but once they get over the hump it makes things easier.

[Flames0910]

Originally Posted by Russic

When I first heard that to take a screen shot on a mac you had to use command+shift+4 I was annoyed. That is a pretty complicated hotkey combination. Only after forcing myself to use it a few weeks I came to appreciate how much more versatile and useful it is than just copying the full page to your clipboard, because it gives you a crosshair to outline what you want a picture of and then dumps the photo on your desktop.

There's a ton of stuff like that where you think to yourself "is that really better?". There's many things on a Mac that I liken to learning to count on two hands instead of one. For a kid to start counting on both hands takes a little getting used to, but once they get over the hump it makes things easier.

run the application "grab" and and you'll get a nice gui and a number of options (timed, selection, full page, etc)

and really, saving it to the desktop makes a lot more sense then clipboard, paste to paint, save. plus making a selection saves you from embarrassing moments where you copy your entire screen including pr0n and crop it in powerpoint, then email it. only to find out that the pr0n is still there waiting for somebody to 'uncrop'.

[Yeah_Baby]

Whenever I have to use a PC, I really miss Expose. Sure I can Alt-Tab, but it's annoying now.